Sola scriptura

[DTENG]

2 Timothy 3:16-17 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. SG

Every part of divine scripture is certainly profitable for all these ends. But, if we would have the whole rule of Christian faith and practice, we must not be content with those Scriptures, which Timothy knew from his infancy, that is, with the Old Testament alone.

With the New Testament assembled and agreed on about 392 AD, we must take along with it the traditions of the apostles, and the interpretation of the church, to which the apostles delivered both the book, and the true meaning of it.

[DTENG]

I don't read this the way you do:

1 Timothy 3:14-16 14 These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; 15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

The word church means assembly, gathering, congregation, etc:

1577 ekklesia {ek-klay-see'-ah}
Meaning: 1) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly 1a) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating 1b) the assembly of the Israelites 1c) any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously 1d) in a Christian sense 1d1) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting...

"The living God" is the pillar and ground of the truth, not Timothy's congregation or any other congregation (read Corinthians?).
The punctuation fits the English translation but does not exist in the original Greek.SG

This represents another big problem I had as a Protestant. Everyone had their own way of reading/interpreting the Bible. As a result, we have tens of thousands of Protestant sects all claiming to own the truth. It is chaos.

Christ clearly did not come to establish a book, but a church. It makes perfect sense that the church he founded would be the pillar and foundation of truth.

[colossians323]

Every part of divine scripture is certainly profitable for all these ends. But, if we would have the whole rule of Christian faith and practice, we must not be content with those Scriptures, which Timothy knew from his infancy, that is, with the Old Testament alone.

With the New Testament assembled and agreed on about 392 AD, we must take along with it the traditions of the apostles, and the interpretation of the church, to which the apostles delivered both the book, and the true meaning of it.

If not for scripture how is one equipped Traditions don't equip us, the Jews proved that, and they were the chosen.

Isn't being equipped, the equivalent of putting on the Armor of God?

Ephesians 6:10-18 (NASB)

The Armor of God

10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm. 14 Stand firm therefore, having girded your loins with truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

18 With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints,

I am not saying throw away tradition, but don't let tradition become your idol.
It is the word that is written that will lead you in the way that you should go. Tradition is like flirting with the way of the Jews.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.................... and the Word came down to dwell with man in the flesh

[colossians323]

This represents another big problem I had as a Protestant. Everyone had their own way of reading/interpreting the Bible. As a result, we have tens of thousands of Protestant sects all claiming to own the truth. It is chaos.

Christ clearly did not come to establish a book, but a church. It makes perfect sense that the church he founded would be the pillar and foundation of truth.

the art and science of interpreting scriptures is Hermeneutics. If applied properly there is no argument. There are not tens of thousands of sects all claiming their own truth, and it is not chaos.

This was happening in Pauls day too. here is what he has to say about sects like Catholics, Baptists, Methodists etc etc. They argued the same argument you are arguing.

1 Corinthians 1:10-14

10 Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. 111213 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one would say you were baptized in my name. 16 Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void. 18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19

Our faith is not in a denomination, but in the Living God of the universe. Paul was chastising those who were putting their faith in a denomination here. We're all one Body, do not put down your brothers and sisters in Christ because you are holding to a denomination

[DTENG]

The Roman Church was in charge for over a thousand years. Following the work of Christ, this Should have been the most enlightened time in human history. Yet after multitudes of wars, scandals and moral hypocrisy, history generally refers to this time as The Dark Ages...

Even to this day with never ending Priest scandals and an openly socialist Pope it is obvious that there is no human Vicar of Christ. So if we are to follow scripture and tradition, what tradition are we to follow?SG

One of the twelve chosen by Christ betrayed him to death. This was a forewarning for the church he established. The Church has/had bad/evil popes and priests, just as one of the chosen twelve bad/evil.

In its 2,000+ years, the Church has not changed a teaching on faith and morals. The current Pope cannot change these teachings either. Protestantism changes its mind on faith and morals often, and there is very little the different sects can agree on.

If you want to know what the Catholic Church teaches, read something by a Catholic, not a Protestant (I can make a recommendation). It would be like learning about the Republican Party by only reading publications written by Democrats.

[colossians323]

One of the twelve chosen by Christ betrayed him to death. This was a forewarning for the church he established. The Church has/had bad/evil popes and priests, just as one of the chosen twelve bad/evil.

In its 2,000+ years, the Church has not changed a teaching on faith and morals. The current Pope cannot change these teachings either. Protestantism changes its mind on faith and morals often, and there is very little the different sects can agree on.

If you want to know what the Catholic Church teaches, read something by a Catholic, not a Protestant (I can make a recommendation). It would be like learning about the Republican Party by only reading publications written by Democrats.

What is purgatory, if not a changed or added teaching?

Why do you try to divide the church? The church is not a building or a denomination, the church is the followers of Christ. This is why reading scripture and using hermeneutics is important. the importance that you place on your denomination speaks louder than the importance you are placing on the living God, the Christ.

[colossians323]

I really appreciate the responses. Looking back, however, I think I may not have been clear about my doubts. My doubt stems from the idea that the Bible alone "Sola" provides all of God's truth. This is what I cannot find in the Bible.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the Bible actually seems to refute this doctrine.

I might add that not only did all the patriarchs of Christianity constantly point to His words, The Christ, Jesus did the same. They refuted everything with scripture. Jesus knocked the jews for following their traditions and neglecting His words, in almost every confrontation.

Peter puts it like this

1 Peter 3:15-

13Who is there to harm you if you prove zealous for what is good? 14But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. And do not fear their intimidation, and do not be troubled, 15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; 16 and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame.

Our response to this should be how? How do we defend the truth? The only way I know to defend it is by knowing his words, and being able to use them just like all the Patriarchs and Christ Himself. He set the example for us all. If you don't know the absolutes contained in scripture, how can you defend what you know to be true, in gentleness and kindness?

[DTENG]

Have you ever seen the word "Trinity" in the bible? Yet you can see thre Trinity throughout the bible.

Here is a good expose for you to check out. It might create more questions, but it definitely should answer too

http://www.equip.org/article/a-defen...ola-scriptura/

The doctrine of the Trinity was firmly established by the Church at the First Council of Constantinople in 381. At this point, the New Testament had still not been compiled in its present form, but the various letters and writings that eventually made up the New Testament were still being debated.

I tried to read the article that you referenced, but the writer lost me when he wrote "Jesus and the apostles constantly appealed to the Bible as the final court of appeal." No, the Bible in its current state did not exist. When Jesus and the apostles refer to scripture, they are referring to the Tanakh (translated to the Septuagint). Additionally, the Jewish faith does not teach or believe sola scriptura with reference to the Tanakh. They have both the Tanakh and oral tradition.

[DTENG]

Our response to this should be how? How do we defend the truth? The only way I know to defend it is by knowing his words, and being able to use them just like all the Patriarchs and Christ Himself. He set the example for us all. If you don't know the absolutes contained in scripture, how can you defend what you know to be true, in gentleness and kindness?

[DTENG]

What is purgatory, if not a changed or added teaching?

Why do you try to divide the church? The church is not a building or a denomination, the church is the followers of Christ. This is why reading scripture and using hermeneutics is important. the importance that you place on your denomination speaks louder than the importance you are placing on the living God, the Christ.

Purgatory has been believed by the Church since its beginnings. It has not changed or been added.

The divide started with Martin Luther 500 years ago and continues to get worse today. The road is narrow.

[RAMCLAP]

Purgatory has been believed by the Church since its beginnings. It has not changed or been added.

The divide started with Martin Luther 500 years ago and continues to get worse today. The road is narrow.

Nope. It doesn't even become dogma until Second Council of Lyons in 1274. Medieval nonsense taken from uninspired books. Christ is all sufficient for salvation. He doesn't need to be crucified ever again. Absent from the body, present with the Lord. Not present in purgatory. BTW, if the Pope has the power to set people free from purgatory why doesn't he do it? Does he enjoy the sufferings of others?

[colossians323]

The doctrine of the Trinity was firmly established by the Church at the First Council of Constantinople in 381. At this point, the New Testament had still not been compiled in its present form, but the various letters and writings that eventually made up the New Testament were still being debated.

this is where you wrong. the Trinity has been seen throughout the whole old testament. It is not a doctrine, it is our LORD. Read the Hebrew shema. If you are saying that the catholic church did not recognize the one God till years later after the new testament was compiled that would be a correct statement. The apostles and the early church understood Who Jesus was and was expressed in their writings (that form the bible)

Sh'ma Yisra'eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad.
Hear, Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One.

Just because the Catholic church did not recognize who the Trinity was does not mean it was not there

T
I tried to read the article that you referenced, but the writer lost me when he wrote "Jesus and the apostles constantly appealed to the Bible as the final court of appeal." No, the Bible in its current state did not exist.

All that means is that you did not read in context. What did Jesus and the apostles refer to when they were quoting scripture? The Bible(torah) the written word of God. Are you saying that Jesus and his apostles did not quote the bible (torah)?

When Jesus and the apostles refer to scripture, they are referring to the Tanakh (translated to the Septuagint). Additionally, the Jewish faith does not teach or believe sola scriptura with reference to the Tanakh. They have both the Tanakh and oral tradition.

oh wait, now you agree with the author of the piece that I submitted, but didn't like that he said bible instead of torah? Semantics much?

[colossians323]

This is a key point. Where do you go for the pillar and foundation of truth? Protestants quote the Bible today and come up with different truths regarding birth control, abortion, homosexuality, female pastors, divorce, children out of wedlock, and the list goes on and on.

Not sure who you are talking about, but the main things are plain and the plain things are main. All of the social issues you talk about are clear in the bible. All denominations have their faults, this is why we look to his word for the clear truth. Give us your experience with Brothers and Sisters who hold to false teaching like you submit above?

How did you handle it with a brother or sister in Christ?
How does Christ say to handle it?
The quotes above sounds like you are dealing with people who are still drinking milk (as written in Hebrews), or don't know Gods word.

Like many catholics I have seen praying to an idol of Mary in their church building. Those brothers and sisters simply have not learned that there is one mediator between man and God and that mediator is Jesus. It is wrong to pray to a statue of Mary or even pray to Mary, but we must correct those who are wrong in gentleness and kindness.

What authority do you have to say that your interpretation of the Bible is the truth and someone else is in error?

I have the authority of the Priesthood that Jesus gave us. As it is written in Hebrews

11 Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

Are you a teacher of His word, or one of those you and I have listed who are simply drinking milk? Who is the author talking to that the should be teachers by this time? Think any Christian who has been following Christ for years.

• How many years have you been a catholic christian?
• Are you teaching, or simply partaking of milk?
• Who are you discipling?
• Who are you being discipled by?

Important questions for a believer who takes their faith seriously, and it appears you do.

Did you know until 1930 all Protestant denominations agreed with the Catholic Church’s teaching condemning contraception as sinful. At its 1930 Lambeth Conference, the Anglican church, swayed by growing social pressure, announced that contraception would be allowed in some circumstances. Soon the Anglican church completely caved in, allowing contraception across the board. Since then, all other Protestant denominations have followed suit. Today, the Catholic Church alone proclaims the historic Christian position on contraception.

Why do you keep referring to denominations? Did we not cover how abhorrent that Paul thought of denominations? Isn't the Church made up of individuals and not a denomination?
Why is it belonging to a denomination appears more important to you than the Christ?

[DTENG]

Nope. It doesn't even become dogma until Second Council of Lyons in 1274. Medieval nonsense taken from uninspired books. Christ is all sufficient for salvation. He doesn't need to be crucified ever again. Absent from the body, present with the Lord. Not present in purgatory. BTW, if the Pope has the power to set people free from purgatory why doesn't he do it? Does he enjoy the sufferings of others?

A teaching does not become dogmatic unless it was something always believed by the faithful. The immaculate conception is another good example of this as well.

I think there may be some confusion about purgatory. It has nothing to do with salvation. Again, you might want to read something written by a Catholic about the Catholic faith.

[WASR10]

As usual, I arrive to these wonderful discussions too late. Much of what I would contribute has already been included. I will add only these two ideas:

The church founded by Jesus Christ predates both the Protestant movement and the Catholic/Orthodoxy movements.

and

"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day." - John 12:48

I know of no other place to receive His word than from the Bible. And if the Bible contains everything we need to be obedient and saved, then what need do we have of anything more?

"Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other." 1 Corinthians 4:6