Angels

[RozaShanina]

Hebrews 13:2 (Heb13:2 "Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it.") is one of the most mis-used verses in the Bible.

How do people use it? They use it be their Biblical proof that they have seen angels (as people or visions) do things - miracles, acts of kindness, comfort.

But, what does the verse say? It says that you "entertain" (i.e. receive as a guest) an angel WITHOUT KNOWING IT! The word means to "escape notice."

If you don't notice, don't know, then you don't even sense that they are angels, let alone be able to say that you've seen one! And, you receive them as a guest - not watch them do miracles, etc.

So, when people in hospitals, on their deathbeds, during operations, etc. or in situations like accidents, wars, etc. say that they've seen angels or Jesus or heaven or something similar - what's happening? Dreams, hallucinations, etc. Those situations often have large amounts of drugs involved, large amounts of pain and adrenalin, etc. Why do their dreams and hallucinations seem so similar to other's dreams and hallucinations? Movies, books, etc. Just the mind replaying from something it associates to.

If you want to come to know Christ and experience His presence personally, you have to obey Him and have a life that He is at home in, enjoys dwelling in (Eph. 3:16-17). And, to have that you have to be saved - grace alone, faith alone, in Christ alone. Angels are His ministering spirits, a shadow of what having Him is like.

Paul directly covered all of this un-Christlike worship:

Col2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

Jesus Christ is the head - the head of the body of Christ - hold fast to Him (alone!)!

Bill

Bill, so you are saying that Jesus did not speak to Saul/Paul on the Damascus road, that the Holy Spirit did not descend on the disciples at Pentecost and that Jesus did not walk with the disciples on the Road to Emmaus? Were those just drug induced hallucinations? How very unbiblical of you.

[damon1272]

Bill,
I have to disagree with you about dreams just based off my experience. I had a dream that involved Christ. (which I will not go into on the forum) I awoke that morning and the depression that I was in for the last year was lifted. Nothing specific to the dream but that depression was lifted when I awoke. If I was smart I would have turned to Christ right then and there...I didn't. I came to accept Christ many years later but not based on this dream.

The memory of that dream stuck with me for many years. It had another message in it that I did not understand.

20+ years after the dream I was granted the revelation of the dream - basically, will you serve me? This shook me to my core. Does it make biblical sense? What took place seems in some ways to align biblically but I can say that Christ and the Holy Spirit spoke into my life and has caused me to move and do what I am not comfortable and at time personally great risk to my comfy life.

So to make a short story long, I do not discount dreams per se. Yes you do have to look to see if they align biblically. I can speak with much greater detail off line but I do think Christ still speaks into peoples lives through dreams and not just through His word.

[billvau]

Bill, so you are saying that Jesus did not speak to Saul/Paul on the Damascus road, that the Holy Spirit did not descend on the disciples at Pentecost and that Jesus did not walk with the disciples on the Road to Emmaus? Were those just drug induced hallucinations? How very unbiblical of you.

Yes, Christ did speak to Paul and the Holy Spirit did descend on three times in the book of Acts. And, yes, the Apostles did miracles in the book of Acts.

BUT, the NT shows/teaches that these ceased. This is the whole area of theology that covers the cessation of gifts, etc. There are many things, many ways that God has changed over the course of history. Just start with the Garden of Eden - He walked in the garden with Adam and Eve. That ended when they were kicked out of the garden. Christ lived on earth but after His resurrection returned to heaven, so walks with us no more (for now).

In 2 Peter 1:16-21, Peter relates how they were blessed to be at the Transfiguration of Christ. Imagine how glorious that must've been to see Christ, Moses, and Elijah! BUT, then Peter says that we have it even better, because we've got the Bible! Imagine that. Having God's Word to learn and live by is BETTER than visions!

So, thanks for the attack, but you'll never find me unbiblical.

Pastor Bill

[billvau]

Bill,
I have to disagree with you about dreams just based off my experience. I had a dream that involved Christ. (which I will not go into on the forum) I awoke that morning and the depression that I was in for the last year was lifted. Nothing specific to the dream but that depression was lifted when I awoke. If I was smart I would have turned to Christ right then and there...I didn't. I came to accept Christ many years later but not based on this dream.

The memory of that dream stuck with me for many years. It had another message in it that I did not understand.

20+ years after the dream I was granted the revelation of the dream - basically, will you serve me? This shook me to my core. Does it make biblical sense? What took place seems in some ways to align biblically but I can say that Christ and the Holy Spirit spoke into my life and has caused me to move and do what I am not comfortable and at time personally great risk to my comfy life.

So to make a short story long, I do not discount dreams per se. Yes you do have to look to see if they align biblically. I can speak with much greater detail off line but I do think Christ still speaks into peoples lives through dreams and not just through His word.

Thanks for sharing your person experience. It sounds amazing. The challenge is that personal experience can't be proven, nor supported Biblically. Yes, people disagree about spiritual gifts (e.g. speaking in tongues), and dreams, etc., but the overwhelming number of Christians who have studied the Word since Christ believe the Bible teaches those have ended and can support this with very sound Biblical exegesis.

However, what's most important is this - do you consider that second dream to be your salvation or did you still turn to the Lord in prayer, repent of your sin, and asked to be saved - to be given eternal life?

Bill

[damon1272]

Bill,
To clarify, this was only one dream but that understanding of that dream took 20+ years. Though there were portions of the dream that i could relate to scripture. Because of this I tread lightly on the revelation of dreams by God to people. This is a way of legitimate communication that God uses to communicate with people. I do think it is over stated and over blown just as the use of tongues. Yes it was just my one experience and is not provable but because of this experience I give people a wider breadth on the subject.

Now as to your question of this dream being my salvation, absolutely not. I have gone to the Lord and repented of my sins and asked for salvation and later being baptized. Payed a personal price to get where I am at with Christ though many others have paid much more than I.

I only liken this dream to Christ calling of his sheep. I was not saved till much later. I do not put any more meaning on this dream than that. As with all we are call but few respond and like me some take a very long time to come to Christ. I think that is a reflection on how deep we are into our sin.

[billvau]

Bill,
To clarify, this was only one dream but that understanding of that dream took 20+ years. Though there were portions of the dream that i could relate to scripture. Because of this I tread lightly on the revelation of dreams by God to people. This is a way of legitimate communication that God uses to communicate with people. I do think it is over stated and over blown just as the use of tongues. Yes it was just my one experience and is not provable but because of this experience I give people a wider breadth on the subject.

Now as to your question of this dream being my salvation, absolutely not. I have gone to the Lord and repented of my sins and asked for salvation and later being baptized. Payed a personal price to get where I am at with Christ though many others have paid much more than I.

I only liken this dream to Christ calling of his sheep. I was not saved till much later. I do not put any more meaning on this dream than that. As with all we are call but few respond and like me some take a very long time to come to Christ. I think that is a reflection on how deep we are into our sin.

Thanks for the clarification! Being saved, as you clearly state that you are, is the part I rejoice over! Sounds like you've got the dream in the right perspective.

Thanks for letting me ask and answering so clearly!

God bless,
Bill

[RozaShanina]

Yes, Christ did speak to Paul and the Holy Spirit did descend on three times in the book of Acts. And, yes, the Apostles did miracles in the book of Acts.

BUT, the NT shows/teaches that these ceased. This is the whole area of theology that covers the cessation of gifts, etc. There are many things, many ways that God has changed over the course of history. Just start with the Garden of Eden - He walked in the garden with Adam and Eve. That ended when they were kicked out of the garden. Christ lived on earth but after His resurrection returned to heaven, so walks with us no more (for now).

In 2 Peter 1:16-21, Peter relates how they were blessed to be at the Transfiguration of Christ. Imagine how glorious that must've been to see Christ, Moses, and Elijah! BUT, then Peter says that we have it even better, because we've got the Bible! Imagine that. Having God's Word to learn and live by is BETTER than visions!

So, thanks for the attack, but you'll never find me unbiblical.

Pastor Bill

So, Bill do you actually own and shoot guns or do you just read books about guns?

Hate to tell you this but God is still speaking.

[billvau]

Hate to tell you this but God is still speaking.

Prove it.

[Volksgrenadier]

Prove it.

Odin isn't speaking. However, his right eye, sacrificed at the Well of Urd in exchange for the deepest of wisdom, is still watching us.

[eb47]

Yes, Christ did speak to Paul and the Holy Spirit did descend on three times in the book of Acts. And, yes, the Apostles did miracles in the book of Acts.

BUT, the NT shows/teaches that these ceased. This is the whole area of theology that covers the cessation of gifts, etc. There are many things, many ways that God has changed over the course of history. Just start with the Garden of Eden - He walked in the garden with Adam and Eve. That ended when they were kicked out of the garden. Christ lived on earth but after His resurrection returned to heaven, so walks with us no more (for now).

In 2 Peter 1:16-21, Peter relates how they were blessed to be at the Transfiguration of Christ. Imagine how glorious that must've been to see Christ, Moses, and Elijah! BUT, then Peter says that we have it even better, because we've got the Bible! Imagine that. Having God's Word to learn and live by is BETTER than visions!

So, thanks for the attack, but you'll never find me unbiblical.

Pastor Bill

What in the world are you talking about? John 14:18-20 Jesus said that he would not leave us comfortless. Not only would he return to us but he would be in us. This is just one example too. Never leave you, nor forsake you? A friend that sticks closer than a brother? Omni present? How can he leave if he's everywhere at all times? Even time itself, he dwells outside of it so he's not restricted by it. Sorry but I don't believe that him no longer striving with man holds water.

[eb47]

Prove it.

Rev. 3:20

[eb47]

Yes, Christ did speak to Paul and the Holy Spirit did descend on three times in the book of Acts. And, yes, the Apostles did miracles in the book of Acts.

BUT, the NT shows/teaches that these ceased. This is the whole area of theology that covers the cessation of gifts, etc. There are many things, many ways that God has changed over the course of history. Just start with the Garden of Eden - He walked in the garden with Adam and Eve. That ended when they were kicked out of the garden. Christ lived on earth but after His resurrection returned to heaven, so walks with us no more (for now).

In 2 Peter 1:16-21, Peter relates how they were blessed to be at the Transfiguration of Christ. Imagine how glorious that must've been to see Christ, Moses, and Elijah! BUT, then Peter says that we have it even better, because we've got the Bible! Imagine that. Having God's Word to learn and live by is BETTER than visions!

So, thanks for the attack, but you'll never find me unbiblical.

Pastor Bill

When did Adam and Eve walk with God in the garden? I hope you are not referring to Gen. 3:8
If so, yes it is unbiblical. They hid when they heard him walking in the cool of the day. "The cool of the day" many preachers have different opinions on this portion of scripture. Who's right, who's wrong? All are speculation. I believe that it could also have meant the time of day it was. Like in today's weather, it tends to be cooler in either the early morning or later in the evening. That's one of the many questions I'll have answered in Heaven.

[johnthomas]

Years ago, I was driving home from work at 1am. I turned from a main road on to a shortcut to the freeway. I knew the road so I was driving a good clip. As I was going around a bend, I heard two words that I hadn't heard in 30 years. My mom used to call my brother and, mejohnnyjack. John and Jack. I put my brakes on pretty hard, I didn't slide, but as I rounded the corner about 5 deer came into view, right in the middle of the road, I slowed down and stopped, they ran. I have heard, Angels often come to us in the form of a loved one. I wont argue with that.

[billvau]

Rev. 3:20

Do you live in Laodicea in the first Century? You'd have to if you're going to ignore the grammatical construct.

[eb47]

Do you live in Laodicea in the first Century? You'd have to if you're going to ignore the grammatical construct.

Are you saying that this was only for a certain time and people in history?