We need non-erotic praise music!

[vandal]

Amen amen, way too much focus on "me and my felt needs." Obviously (or so I would have thought) the focus of worship should be on the attributes of God.

I will concede that emotions surrounding salvation are wholly appropriate, but if those are warm fuzzies somebody missed a lot of salvation theology.

Our church is very good about this... when they installed the worship leader they said "We didn't look for a musician who said he was a Christian, we looked for a theologian who could carry a tune." But it's hard to find contemporary Christian music where the focus is right.

Our family's current notorious example is the "Christian" song where the main theme of the chorus is "I need a little more of you in my life." Wow, just WOW. My kids don't like to ride with me because when that kind of self-serving drivel masquerading as praise comes on the radio they know that a long lecture from Dad is about to begin!

[Wordupmybrotha]

I'll tell you what, in the past we've had some awesome worship leaders at our church, they'd bring the whole congregation into the throne room.
Now we have younger folks "playing music" on Sunday mornings, everyone just sits and watches as they strive to be the next Christian music rock star.
We're pretty disgusted and ready to bail.

Amen amen, way too much focus on "me and my felt needs." Obviously (or so I would have thought) the focus of worship should be on the attributes of God.

I will concede that emotions surrounding salvation are wholly appropriate, but if those are warm fuzzies somebody missed a lot of salvation theology.

Our church is very good about this... when they installed the worship leader they said "We didn't look for a musician who said he was a Christian, we looked for a theologian who could carry a tune." But it's hard to find contemporary Christian music where the focus is right.

Our family's current notorious example is the "Christian" song where the main theme of the chorus is "I need a little more of you in my life." Wow, just WOW. My kids don't like to ride with me because when that kind of self-serving drivel masquerading as praise comes on the radio they know that a long lecture from Dad is about to begin!

I notice that in my church as well. When a pop-sounding girly praise song comes up, our place noticeably goes a little hushed. When a meaty God-centered song comes up, the men of the church dig deep. There's power in that voice. It's palpable.

[Untamed1972]

If it's not for you why not? Is whatever church we go to just a preference? Shouldn't we be going to churches because they are faithful? Especially when it comes to worship. Are churches just man- made institutions, doing whatever they think is ok? Or are they to be obedient to the one who bought them......God? Are we not required by God to judge right from wrong? Are we not to judge who is a faithful teacher and a false teacher? Is not denominationalism a sin against the unity of the church?

Simple answer.....YES.

That's why there are so many denominations, because everyone is vying for the status of being "the ONE with the right interpretation".

And this thread is a prime example of that. You have men, human beings, attempting to assert that what they like, is in actuality the only correct thing to like, despite the fact ALL "Christian music", or "hymns" or whatever are "man made". So who is to say that the "old stuff" YOU like is any more correct or pleasing to God than anything else?

[Just Dave]

Simple answer.....YES.

That's why there are so many denominations, because everyone is vying for the status of being "the ONE with the right interpretation".

And this thread is a prime example of that. You have men, human beings, attempting to assert that what they like, is in actuality the only correct thing to like, despite the fact ALL "Christian music", or "hymns" or whatever are "man made". So who is to say that the "old stuff" YOU like is any more correct or pleasing to God than anything else?

You're wrong, denominations have more to do with language and culture than anything else.
Greek orthodox
Russian orthodox
The Lutherans started in Germany, Anglicans-England...

And you as a non-believer should at least know that people like different types of music.



And if you've following this thread at all you would have noticed for the most part that it's about what the music is focusing on and not so much the type.

[Untamed1972]

You're wrong, denominations have more to do with language and culture than anything else.
Greek orthodox
Russian orthodox
The Lutherans started in Germany, Anglicans-England...

And you as a non-believer should at least know that people like different types of music.



And if you've following this thread at all you would have noticed that it what the music is focusing on and not so much the type.

Of course everyone has their own taste in music. DUH!

I just don't choose to try and impose my taste in music on others, or claim that my preference is the preferred one all should choose.

If someone's expressions of faith to God come from a sincere place, I believe that is what God cares about most. When your 3yo child comes to share something with you, do you chastise them for not expressing themselves in perfectly formatted sentences? Or as a father do you not simply revel in child's love and enthusiasm?

And as I've stated here many times I do not believe it is my place to try and step between someone and their personal relationship with God. If they are sincere, then as they grow in faith, so will their expressions of faith also be refined as a reflection of that growth.

You should be happy that people are expressing faith at all, yet all you can do is tear them down for not having YOUR "world view". Y'all sound like just a bunch of old bitties sometimes.

[Just Dave]

Of course everyone has their own taste in music. DUH!

I just don't choose to try and impose my taste in music on others, or claim that my preference is the preferred one all should choose.

If someone's expressions of faith to God come from a sincere place, I believe that is what God cares about most. And as I've stated here many times I do not believe it is my place to try and step between someone and their personal relationship with God. If they are sincere, then as they grow in faith, so will their expressions of faith also be refined as a reflection of that growth.

You should be happy that people are expressing faith at all, yet all you can do is tear them down for not having YOUR "world view". Y'all sound like just a bunch of bitties sometimes.

I agree with you for the most part, however I don't have a world view..I have a biblical view, I look at everything through the lens of Scripture.

I don't question anyone's relationship with the Lord ether but I do check the fruit.

As far as worshiping goes people in a lot of churches are not, they're sitting there watching people play music..I don't think you'd understand.

[Untamed1972]

I agree with you for the most part, however I don't have a world view..I have a biblical view, I look at everything through the lens of Scripture.

I don't question anyone's relationship with the Lord ether but I do check the fruit.

As far as worshiping goes people in a lot of churches are not, they're sitting there watching people play music..I don't think you'd understand.

That's why I put "world view" in quotes. I meant "life within your church". As I stated....unless you're singing an actual Psalm from the pages of the bible, you're singing or listening to "man made" music. It is the interpretation and expression of a man, it is not divinely inspired scripture. So the stuff you're whining about is the "man made" part of modern Christianity.....not anything biblical.

God can use anything and everything to reach someone's heart. Just because the music doesn't seem to "reaching" or "inspiring" you, doesn't mean that isn't doing that for someone else. If need be he can even "make the stones to cry out". Luke 19:40.

I have been inspired by music of all kinds, even just regular music. At some point in time, just a little phrase or verse from a song stuck in my mind at a time when it touched on something I was dealing with at the time.

So don't put yourself in the position to trying to dictate to others how God should reach them or inspire them because you don't know where that person truly is and where their heart is like God does......He knows what He's doing!

ETA: The fact that the whole basis of this thread is a negative one for the purpose of tearing down someone else, tearing down their choices of expression and worship tells me this is all based on ego. Someone's perceived personal superiority, it's pure self-righteousness is all it is. The daily/weekly "rituals" of the church you attend are ALL man-made, and yet you try to elevate them to something they are not. How is Church A's choice of "ritual" any more valid than Church B's?

[Wordupmybrotha]

That's why I put "world view" in quotes. I meant "life within your church". As I stated....unless you're singing an actual Psalm from the pages of the bible, you're singing or listening to "man made" music. It is the interpretation and expression of a man, it is not divinely inspired scripture. So the stuff you're whining about is the "man made" part of modern Christianity.....not anything biblical.

God can use anything and everything to reach someone's heart. Just because the music doesn't seem to "reaching" or "inspiring" you, doesn't mean that isn't doing that for someone else. If need be he can even "make the stones to cry out". Luke 19:40.

I have been inspired by music of all kinds, even just regular music. At some point in time, just a little phrase or verse from a song stuck in my mind at a time when it touched on something I was dealing with at the time.

So don't put yourself in the position to trying to dictate to others how God should reach them or inspire them because you don't know where that person truly is and where their heart is like God does......He knows what He's doing!

ETA: The fact that the whole basis of this thread is a negative one for the purpose of tearing down someone else, tearing down their choices of expression and worship tells me this is all based on ego. Someone's perceived personal superiority, it's pure self-righteousness is all it is. The daily/weekly "rituals" of the church you attend are ALL man-made, and yet you try to elevate them to something they are not. How is Church A's choice of "ritual" any more valid than Church B's?

You make interesting points. I appreciate that.
You see this thread as a negative one for the purpose of tearing down someone else. I don't see it that way.

I think the fundamental difference between our views stems from you seeing that there's no right or wrong way; it's a matter of preference.

I think that ultimately there is a right way and a wrong way. For example, having a God-centered attitude is right. Man-centered attitude is wrong.

However, music is very tricky. That's the reasons why I posted. To hear multiple views on this subject as I wasn't sure if I was being biblical.

[Untamed1972]

You make interesting points. I appreciate that.
You see this thread as a negative one for the purpose of tearing down someone else. I don't see it that way.

I think the fundamental difference between our views stems from you seeing that there's no right or wrong way; it's a matter of preference.

I think that ultimately there is a right way and a wrong way. For example, having a God-centered attitude is right. Man-centered attitude is wrong.

However, music is very tricky. That's the reasons why I posted. To hear multiple views on this subject as I wasn't sure if I was being biblical.

I disagree with your characterization of my comments, as that's not what I said.

I believe growing in faith is a process. And where one is today in their understanding and growth is hopefully not where they were yesterday, or where they will be tomorrow.

What reaches and inspires you today may be different than what it was in the past or may be in the future. But that is all part of the process, and what I constantly try to caution against is trying to improperly intervene in someone else's "process" and substitute your own. I on the other hand choose to trust that God is fully capable of leading someone along the personal path he has chosen for them.

You're essentially "arguing" about a completely man-made aspect of your particular church's man-made rituals for conducting church services, and then saying my opinion or preference of man-made ritual is better or more pleasing to God than someone else's.

[Untamed1972]

As far as worshiping goes people in a lot of churches are not, they're sitting there watching people play music..I don't think you'd understand.

That's a rather arrogant statement to make isn't it?

They're there. They're listening. Are you claiming that you can read hearts like God can, and KNOW how what is going on or what they are hearing is affecting them?

Sounds like a very "man-centered" way of thinking to me.

Based on my own personal experiences, I would NEVER put myself in the place to make that judgment of another. It simply is not my place.

It always amazes me how so many of these threads and posts just seem to be completely absent of any kind of love and compassion. It's all just arrogant, self-righteous judgment.

[Wordupmybrotha]

Of course everyone has their own taste in music. DUH!

I just don't choose to try and impose my taste in music on others, or claim that my preference is the preferred one all should choose.

If someone's expressions of faith to God come from a sincere place, I believe that is what God cares about most. When your 3yo child comes to share something with you, do you chastise them for not expressing themselves in perfectly formatted sentences? Or as a father do you not simply revel in child's love and enthusiasm?

And as I've stated here many times I do not believe it is my place to try and step between someone and their personal relationship with God.

You should be happy that people are expressing faith at all, yet all you can do is tear them down for not having YOUR "world view". Y'all sound like just a bunch of old bitties sometimes.

Sure, as a father I revel in my 3 year old's love and enthusiasm. And God the Father does too when we go to him. We don't have to be perfect. He loves you and me just as we are.

I also like what you said here: "If they are sincere, then as they grow in faith, so will their expressions of faith also be refined as a reflection of that growth."

My view is that reverence for God is one of the signs of spiritual maturity. My opinion is that a lot of the songs treat him like a girlfriend and the songs don't fully capture who he is.

The posts I've read so far have talked about the content of the songs, my sinful nature, and anecdotal stories about their church, which all have been great discussion points. And I appreciate your input as well.

[Untamed1972]

Sure, as a father I revel in my 3 year old's love and enthusiasm. And God the Father does too when we go to him. We don't have to be perfect. He loves you and me just as we are.

I also like what you said here: "If they are sincere, then as they grow in faith, so will their expressions of faith also be refined as a reflection of that growth."

My view is that reverence for God is one of the signs of spiritual maturity. My opinion is that a lot of the songs treat him like a girlfriend and the songs don't fully capture who he is.

The posts I've read so far have talked about the content of the songs, my sinful nature, and anecdotal stories about their church, which all have been great discussion points. And I appreciate your input as well.

I would simply ask this question and it could relate to many topics, not just music.

"Because of your personal preferences, are you willing to be the reason that the person next to you doesn't hear the ONE thing they needed to hear that day?"

I know that God will find a way to get me what I need regardless. But when it comes to function in an organizational structure like a church, one must give as much or more consideration to the needs of those around them as they do their own. Do you believe your church is directed by Holy Spirit? If you do then you would trust the music being played is what needs to be heard by those in attendance. If you have issue with the music then isn't your real issue a lack of belief in the direction of Holy Spirit in your congregation?

[The War Wagon]

Okay, then here is one just for you.

Auctor beate saeculi,
Christe Redemptor omnium,
Lumen Patris de lumine,
Deusque verus de Deo.
Amor coegit te tuus
Mortale corpus sumere,
Ut novus Adam redderes
Quod vetus ill(e) abstulerat.
Ill(e) amor almus artifex
Terrae, marisqu(e) et siderum,
Errata patrum miserans,
Et nostra rumpens vincula.
Non corde discedat tuo
Vis ill(a) amoris inclyti:
Hoc fonte gentes hauriant
Remissionis gratiam.
Percuss(um) ad hoc est lancea,
Passumqu(e) ad hoc est vulnera,
Ut nos lavaret sordibus
Unda fluent(e) et sanguine.
Iesu tibi sit gloria,
Qui Corde fundis gratiam,
Cum Patr(e) et almo Spiritu
In sempiterna saecula. Amen.

OK - so it's fairly creedal, but it can't be Waltherian, because its Latin, not German (Walther, like all the Missouri Fathers, KNEW their Latin, but wrote their hymns in German).

It's Latin, so its western church, but clearly pre-dates the St. Louis Jesuits. So out with it.

[TomMcC]

Simple answer.....YES.

That's why there are so many denominations, because everyone is vying for the status of being "the ONE with the right interpretation".

And this thread is a prime example of that. You have men, human beings, attempting to assert that what they like, is in actuality the only correct thing to like, despite the fact ALL "Christian music", or "hymns" or whatever are "man made". So who is to say that the "old stuff" YOU like is any more correct or pleasing to God than anything else?

Because God says it Himself! That who.

Then you fail to understand what the scriptures say about the church.

I have appealed to the Scriptures multiple times to prove my point. To say that's "just your interpretation" is NOT to engage at the point of God's revelation to us. God really can't be understood by anyone. You sound like Ponitius Pilate......"Truth?? What is true??

Pick up your Bible and read it, then read it again and again and again. Jesus promised. "If you are my disciples, you will know the truth and the truth shall set you free."

[Just Dave]

That's a rather arrogant statement to make isn't it?

They're there. They're listening. Are you claiming that you can read hearts like God can, and KNOW how what is going on or what they are hearing is affecting them?

Sounds like a very "man-centered" way of thinking to me.

Based on my own personal experiences, I would NEVER put myself in the place to make that judgment of another. It simply is not my place.

It always amazes me how so many of these threads and posts just seem to be completely absent of any kind of love and compassion. It's all just arrogant, self-righteous judgment.

That's not an arrogant statement, that's the truth.

I've seen the congregation go from singing their hearts out to the Lord to just sitting and listening to someone playing music.
Like I had said in my prior comment, unless you're a bible believing Christian and attend church regularly you wouldn't understand.

There is a huge difference between leading a congregation into singing songs of praise to God than just having them sit there while you perform.