God's Plan for Israel

[Xcountryrider]

God's Plan for Israel

He is correct on most points. I disagree with him on a few things but he's preaching biblically and that's hard to argue with.


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[Not a Cook]

Christ was clearly talking about literal weapons. But He was not encouraging His disciples to defend themselves through violence, which would have contradicted His previous instruction, in Matthew 5:38-39, against harming others.
In Luke 9:56, He had stated, “For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.” In Matthew 5:44, He had instructed, “…Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.”
In Luke 22:37, Christ showed the meaning of His statement: “For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in Me, And He was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning Me have an end [they will be fulfilled].”
Why did Christ instruct His disciples to get swords? To assure the fulfillment of the prophecy in Isaiah 53:12 (which He had inspired and now quoted). He was to be considered a lawbreaker (“transgressor”). He was not endorsing the use of weapons for the purpose of harming other people (whether in self-defense or otherwise). In verse 51 of Luke 22, we see that when Peter drew a sword and strike the High Priest’s servant, Christ chastised him for his actions. He then healed the man by re-attaching his ear, which Peter had cut off.

You're a bit late to the party on this topic. You're interpretation is not with proper consideration to the context. Rather than retype it all, I suggest you review this post (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...&postcount=128) and the rest of the replies in that thread. Isaiah 53:12 has absolutely nothing to do with Christ's command to buy a sword. That prophecy was fulfilled by Christ apart from anything to do with a sword. Christ suffered in our place. WE are the transgressors. If you want more info, see the previous thread.

[Xcountryrider]

Yes... anti-Semitism should have absolutely NO place in the life of a follower of Christ.

However, Israel is not at war against Christians. Are there Jews who hate Christians? Yes... just like there are people of just about every ethnic group that hate Christians. Is the modern-day nation of Israel perfect? No, not by any means... but I don't think anyone here has ever claimed that Israel is/was perfect. However, claiming Israel is at war against Christians is simply not true.

Your other repeated claim that "The Palestinians are Hebrews the remnant that have stayed loyal to God from the Exodus to today" is also not true. First, the vast majority of folks which today have self-described themselves as "Palestinians" are Muslims - they are not followers of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob by any means. Second, the Middle East has historically been an amazingly effective "melting pot". The ethnic background of those who self-describe themselves as "Palestinian" is quite diverse. It's not a whole lot different than many "Heinz-57 Americans". Attempting to claim that "the Palestinian people" are a remnant of Israel is truly grasping at straws. Are there Palestinians who are Christians? Yes... by God's grace, of course there are! Just like there are Jews who follow Christ. Are there Palestinians who have Jewish ancestors? Yes, of course. But you're conflating multiple different ideas and pieces from history in attemping to claim "the Palestinian people" are the faithful remnant of Israel.

Are "the Palestinian people" victims? Yes... of course, just like every people group are victims (both victims of other groups, and sometimes victims of themselves). However, they aren't victims of Israel. Look to the leaders of the various Palestinian groups - the PLO, Fatah, etc. Investigate the leaders. Look at how unbelievably wealthy MANY of them are while there supposed "brothers" suffer in poverty. Consider how often they're caught lying to both their own people and the international community. If you really want to help those Christians in Gaza (who number VERY few) or in the West Bank, then work toward positive changes in the leadership of the Palestinian groups. Also, work toward equipping the Christians in those areas for self-defense. Tragedies like the murder of Rami Ayyad - one of the most visible "Palestinian Christians" in the Gaza strip - by his supposedly "Muslim brothers" is a much more real and present threat to the Christians you claim to be concerned about than are the people of Israel. WHY? Because Christians are COMMANDED by Christ to go out and make disciples for Him wherever we are. What happens when a Muslim is lead to the Lord in the Gaza Strip, or the West Bank, or Iran, or Saudi Arabia? Muslims murder them - simply because they became Christians. Notice that in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank - the Jews aren't the ones murdering the new disciple, but rather the Muslims. It's one of the largest reasons why the "Christian populations" of many "Palestinian" communities has been continually declining. The Koran teaches that Muslims should murder Christians and Jews. The Tanakh teaches no such thing. BY FAR, the biggest persecutors of Christians (both today and throughout history) is Islam. If you're really concerned for other followers of Christ, why are you focusing on Jews rather than those who are actively murdering Christians on a regular basis?

I urge you to stop focusing on Israel and the Jews. Your intent may not be anti-Semitic (it's difficult for me to discern over the internet), but your posts certainly seem to indicate that you are unhealthily obsessed with the Jewish people and these threads are not a "comely witness" for Christ.

As a follower of Christ, our concern shouldn't be about being "against" any group, but rather about preaching the gospel of Christ and making disciples for Him. If you continue to be focused on the Jewish people, I suggest reaching out to Jewish people, building relationships with them, and being faithful to offer them the gospel of Christ. Offer them your friendship, and then offer them your faith. If they reject the gospel, do what Christ taught. Don't attack them. Love them, and let them go in peace. Christ taught that sometimes we plant seeds, sometimes we water, sometimes we sow. You never know how the Lord may reward such faithfulness to Him.

The Palestinian Christians are most certainly descended from the Hebrews as genetics proves it and they are victims of Israel who took there land at gun point. By land i don't mean in a vague sense but literally there farms and homes. Then when they tried to return to there homes the Israeli Air Forces bombed there homes. Literally dropped bombs on them. I'm not talking about the PLO or Hamas but Christian farmers. They can return to there land possibly of they deny Christ as thats the only way to become a citizen of Israel if your a Christian is to deny Christ. They Christians won't deny Christ so they are locked out of there land.

[keenkeen]

But today's religious Jews are God's chosen people.

There was a thread on this very site less than a week ago that proved it beyond a doubt.

[Xcountryrider]

lol

[Xcountryrider]

I don't think supporting a country that requires citizens to deny Christ is a Biblical thing to do. Its the essence of a Anti-Christ government. Its also no Anti semetic to not support the government of Israel because the Palestinian Christians are Semites and many or most of the Israelis are not semites being eastern Europeans and not Semites. In fact supporting the government of israel is probably very antisemitic.

[keenkeen]

I don't think supporting a country that requires citizens to deny Christ is a Biblical thing to do. Its the essence of a Anti-Christ government. Its also no Anti semetic to not support the government of Israel because the Palestinian Christians are Semites and many or most of the Israelis are not semites being eastern Europeans and not Semites. In fact supporting the government of israel is probably very antisemitic.

You do not have to deny Christ to be an Israeli Citizen.

More disinformation from the OP.

[Xcountryrider]

You certainly have to Deny Christ and then go through a ceremony to purge you of Christianity.

[keenkeen]

You certainly have to Deny Christ and then go through a ceremony to purge you of Christianity.

Supporting link?

I'll wait...

And what about the many many people who are already Israeli Citizens? Did they all have to do this? What about their children and their children's children? Will they have to deny Christ also?

[Xcountryrider]

Israel only allows Jews to become Israeli citizens.

In 1999, the Supreme Court of Israel ruled that Jews or the descendants of Jews that actively practice a religion OTHER than Judaism would not be allowed to immigrate to Israel as they would no longer be considered Jews under the provisions of the Law of Return.

Israeli legislators chose to make a clear distinction between the Law of Return, which allows for Jews and their descendants to immigrate to Israel, and between Israel's nationality law, which formally grants Israeli citizenship based on the Oleh's certificate. In other words, the Law of Return in and of itself does not determine Israeli citizenship; it merely allows for Jews and their eligible descendants to permanently relocate within the territory of Israel.
The state of Israel does, however, grant citizenship to any applicant who immigrated to Israel via the Law of Return if the applicant so desires, though this is not mandated by the Law of Return itself.
(wikipedia)

[Xcountryrider]

http://www.nytimes.com/1989/12/27/world/israeli-court-rules-jews-for-jesus-cannot-automatically-be-citizens.html

[eb47]

As much as I'd love for Jesus to be a sword swinger. This is often taken out of context. Jesus was trying to get arrested when he said "buy one". It was for attention. Not a fight. Sorry. Context.

Jesus didn't need to find a way to draw attention to himself. People flocked to him everywhere he went. He did not say anything to Peter for the ear, Jesus said should he not drink of the cup that the Father has given him. He's also coming back on a white horse, oh yeah...With a SWORD too(Rev.19).

[Xcountryrider]

Supporting link?

I'll wait...

And what about the many many people who are already Israeli Citizens? Did they all have to do this? What about their children and their children's children? Will they have to deny Christ also?

The government of Israel only recognizes the Christ rejecting religion of Judaism. If a Christian want to become a citizen they have to deny Christ is the Messiah and go through a "cleaning ceremony" with rabbi's. This sort of anti Christian government is not something any Christian should support. Just like we should not support other anti Christian governments like Muslim and communist governments that persecute Christians. All Christian countries give jews full rights as we of course should but we should also demand the same treatment of the government of Israel.

[keenkeen]

Again, what about the children of the MILLIONS of non-Jewish Israeli Citizens?

And their children...and their children...etc...etc?

Please enlighten on how they are required to deny Christ to be citizens.

Your original post mentions nothing about "becoming" a citizen...only "to be a citizen".

[keenkeen]

Israel only allows Jews to become Israeli citizens.

Wrong again...see my post above.