interesting topic concerning Calvinism. School me...

[Just Dave]

Ok. But, how does what you consider have to do with it? Feelings are irrelevant. If you are going to sling accusations of heresy you'don't better be able to back it up.

I'm working now but I will continue this later

[hasserl]

Lutherans have a different take on predestination than Calvinists. The scriptures definitely tell us of "the elect", if we reject that we're rejecting scripture. Lutherans accept predestination of the elect, as scripture teaches, but we reject predestination of the damned. As WASR10 pointed out, Christ died for ALL, that ALL may be saved. We believe that God's will is that all be saved, and those that are not saved, is because of their rejection of Christ, not because God predestined them to eternal damnation. Thus we reject "Double Predestination", as we refer to the Calvinist position.

I'll post this link here for those more interested in the topic and would like to view the "official" Lutheran take on the topic. It says more than I could say in a short discussion forum post. Go to this link and scroll down the page to the section: OF THE ELECTION OF GRACE

http://www.lcms.org/doctrine/doctrinalposition

In the meantime, what may help you all think about this better is to stop conceptualizing God as trapped within the limits of our 3 dimensional world and especially within time. Your birth and your death are the same, and they are the same as the beginning and the end of the universe. We see time linearly, as a flat line always in front of and behind us. But don't put God on that same level. He is not trapped in time, he knows you individually, and he knows your birth, your baptism, your faith, and he knows your death. To him it is all the same. Time is not linear to God who is above it. You are of the "elect" not because you are special, you are elect because Christ died for your salvation and you believe in him and do not reject him. As the link I posted above puts it:

all those who by the grace of God alone, for Christ's sake, through the means of grace, are brought to faith, are justified, sanctified, and preserved in faith here in time, that all these have already from eternity been endowed by God with faith, justification, sanctification, and preservation in faith, and this for the same reason, namely, by grace alone, for Christ's sake, and by way of the means of grace.

You see, Calvinists get it partly right. It IS all do to God's grace, not of our own doing. But that grace is ours from eternity, not given at some point in time, God is not in time. Please go read the rest of the link, it really is worth the time invested.

[hasserl]

...
My input. I'm neither Protestant, LDS, Mormon, Baptist...Just a Christian and strive to follow what it means to be Christ-like. I think we all get caught up in other people's teachings and interpretations of the Bible, and fail to see the real book in front of us, the Guide to eternal Life...

I would respectfully counter that men before us have already done a lot of very heavy lifting, so to speak, in unwrapping the message of salvation contained in that real book you speak of. To reject all of that and strike it out alone is foolish, IMO. It's like a scientist rejecting all of the work done before and striking out all on his own, without the work of Newton, Einstein, Tesla, etc. Really? You're just going to start out fresh and figure out all by yourself all the physics and equations and proofs and work that has already been done? How much of a scientist would you be?

There is so much work that has been done before, from men going all the way back to the 1st century, why would you reject that, and just start out on your own? Personally, I've found the unfolding of the Gospel by the great Lutheran theologians to be the best explanations of the Christian faith to be found. This is not getting "caught up in other people's teachings and interpretations of the Bible" as you put it, it is taking advantage of all the heavy lifting that has been done before, on your behalf. And to ignore it is akin to someone interested in science but ignoring the works of the great scientists of the past.

[Just Dave]

Ok. But, how does what you consider have to do with it? Feelings are irrelevant. If you are going to sling accusations of heresy you'don't better be able to back it up.

Back it up?
T.U.L.I.P

The five points of reformation theology (Calvinism) contradicts what the Bible teaches, WASR10's comment which I initially responded to is a clear demonstration of this.

What makes this theology so dangerous was expressed in my prior comment and there are other ways where this type of theology is destructive as well.

And the fruit?
I could go to length writing about my experiences with Calvinist.

[RAMCLAP]

Again, "because I said so" isn't an argument. It's a troll grenade. I can do the same. It's very easy.

That's a good breakdown.
I would also add that Calvinist Arminians sign on to what I call "second hand theology", they study and receive what others have say about the word instead of what the Bible has to say for itself.

I believe Calvinism Arminianism to be a dangerous heresy.

See. Fixed it for you.

Actually Pope Leo said the same thing about the reformers. Are you the Pope? Actually I'm not a betting man but I'd go way out there to bet you have no Theological credentials at all. Yet you believe you can just label a huge swath of Orthodox Chritianity as "heretical"? Me thinks you stand on sand.

[Just Dave]

Again, "because I said so" isn't an argument. It's a troll grenade. I can do the same. It's very easy.



See. Fixed it for you.

Actually Pope Leo said the same thing about the reformers. Are you the Pope? Actually I'm not a betting man Yet you believe you can just label a huge swath of Orthodox Chritianity as "heretical"? Me thinks you stand on sand.

"Christ died for all" (2 Cor 5:15) This destroys "L" limited atonement.

We're talking about a theology here, not so much people. However, the fruit of this theology is a little over ripe.

Let's stick to the theology and not make it personal.

[ThePatriot]

What it comes down to, if you strip all the theological jibber jabber away is this: Under pure Calvinism you do not exist as an entity capable of making any choices whatsoever. I know that people will try and argue that you can choose sin but that is not possible within Calvin's framework. Sin is rebellion, and rebellion is a conscious act, Calvinism rests entirely upon the idea that there is a certain body of people that God predestined to take to Heaven well before the universe was even made. The balance of the equation is that God made a bunch of people that are just kindling and will burn, nobody has a choice in the matter. So under Calvinism we are all simply puppets playing out a script that was pre-written for us. There is no actual good or evil because none of us has any will. When it comes down to it Calvinism is a logically indefensible philosophy that is entirely based on a few very ambiguous references to a group called "the elect". The meaning of that term is never defined and does not even seem to be used consistently within the new testament. Calvinism also demands that the thoughtful reader ignore huge stretches of scripture that clearly indicate that we have at least some will to make choices in our lives which have bearing on our eternal fate. It is very easy to get all wound up over this sort of thing but never forget that be it Arminianism or Calvinism or any other ism they are just theories about how it works - they are not Christianity itself. There is a great deal of uncertainty about the mechanics of the whole thing but you can break it down into its most basic form - the world is broken - all are going to sin - sin brings on destruction - God has given us a way out - Christ is that way. This is the gospel, the rest is just politics.

[Just Dave]

What it comes down to, if you strip all the theological jibber jabber away is this: Under pure Calvinism you do not exist as an entity capable of making any choices whatsoever. I know that people will try and argue that you can choose sin but that is not possible within Calvin's framework. Sin is rebellion, and rebellion is a conscious act, Calvinism rests entirely upon the idea that there is a certain body of people that God predestined to take to Heaven well before the universe was even made. The balance of the equation is that God made a bunch of people that are just kindling and will burn, nobody has a choice in the matter. So under Calvinism we are all simply puppets playing out a script that was pre-written for us. There is no actual good or evil because none of us has any will. When it comes down to it Calvinism is a logically indefensible philosophy that is entirely based on a few very ambiguous references to a group called "the elect". The meaning of that term is never defined and does not even seem to be used consistently within the new testament. Calvinism also demands that the thoughtful reader ignore huge stretches of scripture that clearly indicate that we have at least some will to make choices in our lives which have bearing on our eternal fate. It is very easy to get all wound up over this sort of thing but never forget that be it Arminianism or Calvinism or any other ism they are just theories about how it works - they are not Christianity itself. There is a great deal of uncertainty about the mechanics of the whole thing but you can break it down into its most basic form - the world is broken - all are going to sin - sin brings on destruction - God has given us a way out - Christ is that way. This is the gospel, the rest is just politics.

It's indefensible biblically as well.
If God chose to bring people into heaven and into hell (predestination) without said people having any say in the matter then why preach the gospel?
If people are predestined to heaven because God chose them (the elect) then there is no need for the gospel.

[Xcountryrider]

I know two things that we are predestined and we have free will both. Both are in the bible.

[RAMCLAP]

"Christ died for all" (2 Cor 5:15) This destroys "L" limited atonement.

We're talking about a theology here, not so much people. However, the fruit of this theology is a little over ripe.

Let's stick to the theology and not make it personal.

Really? You call millions of fellow Christians "heretics" and you want me to "not make it personal"? Your credibility is in extreme dispute.

Let us make something clear. TULIP came out of the remonstrance. Calvin NEVER said it. He had been dead for decades. Second, the atonement is only effective for the elect. The whole world is not saved. If you believe in universal salvation then you need to back that up with some scripture. I've never seen where the whole world is saved. Therefore, the atonement is limited to the elect.

Deuteronomy 14:2 For thou art a holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto Himself above all the nations that are upon the earth.
GOD chose. They did not choose Him. He chose them.

[RAMCLAP]

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”[b] 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”[c]

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea:

“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”[i]
26 and,

“In the very place where it was said to them,
‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’”[j]
27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
28 For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality.”[k]

Not "heresy". God Chooses. God is free to be God. He answers to no one but His own good council.

[RAMCLAP]

As I said in the beginning, I don't care if you accept it or not. What is important is that you are saved. So let's stop dropping label bombs on our brothers and pray for each other and lift each other up instead.

[hasserl]

What it comes down to, if you strip all the theological jibber jabber away is this: Under pure Calvinism you do not exist as an entity capable of making any choices whatsoever. I know that people will try and argue that you can choose sin but that is not possible within Calvin's framework. Sin is rebellion, and rebellion is a conscious act, Calvinism rests entirely upon the idea that there is a certain body of people that God predestined to take to Heaven well before the universe was even made. The balance of the equation is that God made a bunch of people that are just kindling and will burn, nobody has a choice in the matter. So under Calvinism we are all simply puppets playing out a script that was pre-written for us. There is no actual good or evil because none of us has any will. When it comes down to it Calvinism is a logically indefensible philosophy that is entirely based on a few very ambiguous references to a group called "the elect". The meaning of that term is never defined and does not even seem to be used consistently within the new testament. Calvinism also demands that the thoughtful reader ignore huge stretches of scripture that clearly indicate that we have at least some will to make choices in our lives which have bearing on our eternal fate. It is very easy to get all wound up over this sort of thing but never forget that be it Arminianism or Calvinism or any other ism they are just theories about how it works - they are not Christianity itself. There is a great deal of uncertainty about the mechanics of the whole thing but you can break it down into its most basic form - the world is broken - all are going to sin - sin brings on destruction - God has given us a way out - Christ is that way. This is the gospel, the rest is just politics.

You don't have all of the above right, but you have presented the dilemma that exists with the doctrine of double predestination. And while we do have scripture passages speaking of the elect as those who are saved, we don't have the opposite, do we? Are there any passages that describe the un-elect?

I'm sorry, I don't mean to gang up on our Calvinist brothers and sisters, but this is a major point of differentiation between Calvinists and Lutherans. We agree on much, but not on this.

[RAMCLAP]

I have no problems at all with those distinctions. However, the OP was "school me on Calvinism". Not , "who I think is a heretic". Talk about a thread jack. And by a brother no less.

[Just Dave]

I have no problems at all with those distinctions. However, the OP was "school me on Calvinism". Not , "who I think is a heretic". Talk about a thread jack. And by a brother no less.

I didn't jack the thread, I responded to WASR10's comment which was right on.

If God choses people kicking and screaming to go to heaven without a choice in the matter because He elected them then there is no need to preach the gospel.

OP asked about Calvinism and he's getting answers.


Carry on.