interesting topic concerning Calvinism. School me...

[kustomkat1950]

sooo.

During our weekly Bible study, the subject of pre-destination was kicked around.

Subsequently, if one believes the theory of Calvin, God so loved the Church, thus nullifying John 3:16.

Thoughts?

My input. I'm neither Protestant, LDS, Mormon, Baptist...Just a Christian and strive to follow what it means to be Christ-like. I think we all get caught up in other people's teachings and interpretations of the Bible, and fail to see the real book in front of us, the Guide to eternal Life...

[spamsucker]

All I know is, if I have no free will but to be a sinner how can I be morally culpable?

[RAMCLAP]

First, Calvin and Luther were students of Augustine. Predestination was not their theory. It was the doctrine of the Church at the Council of Carthage.

As to John 3:16, we know that not all are saved. So, even though Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for the world it is only efficient for the elect. "Whosoever" clearly does not mean "allsoever". If it did, the Gospel would not need to be preached because we would already be saved.

Ephesians 2
2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

So, Since we are dead we cannot choose to become alive. God must make us alive. Or as Jesus said to Nocodemus, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."(John 3:3) So, until God makes you alive(regeneration) you can't even see the Kingdom much less choose it. Dead people don't "do" anything. They can't. Salvation is not from works lest anyone boast. It is the free gift of God. Choose is a verb. It is a work. You cannot work your way into Heaven. So, get down on your knees and give thanks to the Almighty that He(not you) has saved you from the wrath to come.

I'd like you all to know that is what I believe. However, it doesn't matter to me if you don't. It is an extra-Orthodox subject. What matters is that you do believe.

[zack30]

Too much faith is instilled in the faithless. The direction of peoples faith always seems to be veered more towards a person/place rather than an idea or state of being. This is why I stopped going to church. I do not believe in worship of a place that man built, or an idea that came from a mans mind. Everyone has their own inner sense of what is right and what is wrong when it comes to faith, some just need a little extra push, and those who think it is there job to do the pushing give Christians a bad name

[Doheny]

Knowing/accepting/loving Jesus is what matters.

.

[kustomkat1950]

RAMCLAP
Zack30
Doheny(love your avatar)

Thank you all for your input. It is valuable.

I feel it is time to distance myself from the Bible study at this time and move in a new direction...Create one of my own and bring relevance back to God's Word. No theatrics, no theory. Just the Bible and what it means..that is the Truth.

Keep in mind I am witnessing to friends I had in the Navy and are the people, I feel God has called me to bring the Word to...

Funny story, had a lunch with an old friend of mine and discussed the Bible in great lengths over lunch...and I've been a closet Christian till then..

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile."

a new found strength rose up inside me and I feel the urge (thru Christ) to preach to me and mine...



Look for a thread of mine that has good metal bands that are Christian. I feel this this is important, as I am a musician and love/live music. Give the Glory to God!!!

[WASR10]

For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. - 1 Corinthians 1:21

As far as I understand it, predestination suggests that while Christ’s sacrifice is infinitely intensive in saving ability, it is not infinitely extensive in its application. That is, there is an elect group that receives grace and salvation. But the apostle Peter wrote that the Lord is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9) Paul wrote to Titus, "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men” (Titus 2:11) Paul also stated that God “desires all men to be saved,” (1 Timothy 2:4). The Hebrews writer claimed that Christ did, “taste death for everyone,” (Hebrews 2:9) and John asserted Christ is the propitiation for sins, “Not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.” (1 John 2:2)

Predestination also teaches that there is no choice of the individual to accept or reject what Christ has done. But we read that 3,000 people were added to the church because of a choice they made, they "gladly received the word." (Acts 2:41) Jesus said, "…and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life." (John 5:40) His words imply a personal will to accept or reject Christ. Jesus also presented an invitation to come to Him, “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matt. 11:28) An invitation seems to show that there is a choice of acceptance or rejection. The Bible ends with an invitation. Jesus said,

“The Spirit and the bride say, ‘Come.’ And let the one who hears say, ‘Come.’ And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.” - Revelation 22:17

I don’t know if Christ would present an invitation if there was no choice, nor would it be addressed to all if there were some who cannot accept it.

[kustomkat1950]

WASR10,

in two words:

Nailed it!!!!

Thanks all and may God keep you in good spirits!

[RAMCLAP]

Yes. Though God does the work of salvation, he does not believe for you. You must do that. And you do that by the power of the Holy Spirit. Remember that the Glory belongs to Jesus. Not us.

[Just Dave]

For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. - 1 Corinthians 1:21

That's a good breakdown.
I would also add that Calvinist sign on to what I call "second hand theology", they study and receive what others have say about the word instead of what the Bible has to say for itself.

I believe Calvinism to be a dangerous heresy.

[RAMCLAP]

That is an idiotic accusation based on nothing. I could just sling the mud right back at you. If you have evidence then use it. Baseless accusations are just trolling.

[spamsucker]

Calvinism posits that man has no choice but to sin. That's some pre-destiny right there. Even if you take that predestination only so far that man is destined to be a sinner but that the mode of sin is free will it still means that the definition of man as sinner was decided for man and man thence has no moral culpability in being a sinner. Seems to me that such inherently self-contradictory failed logic would have to be of serious concern to the other sects.

[RAMCLAP]

So you honestly think that sinning is a choice?. By that logic, you should be able to never sin again just by choosing not to. Try that for a while and see how that works out.

[Just Dave]

That is an idiotic accusation based on nothing. I could just sling the mud right back at you. If you have evidence then use it. Baseless accusations are just trolling.

Whoa, easy dude.
Calvinism teaches that God chooses who will go to heaven and who will not based entirely on the will of God without man having any say in that decision

If you were to approach me with that theology 20 years ago I would have considered myself not one of the chosen and continued in my life of decadence.

[RAMCLAP]

Ok. But, how does what you consider have to do with it? Feelings are irrelevant. If you are going to sling accusations of heresy you'd better be able to back it up.