Department firearms qualifications

[nickbackouris]

LEO's who have worked a weapons training unit or are at least in the know, if an officer/deputy fails your department firearms qualification, what kind of discipline (if any) do they receive?

I understand policy varies, but as a general idea, let's assume the officer/deputy fails the pistol qualification and is pulled from the field and desked. They get remedial training and a short time later they pass the qual. Maybe they even re-med and pass the same day they failed, who knows. Are departments tacking on any discipline on top of the failure? Days on the beach, station file letter, etc?

If you would rather PM a response than post here, I understand. I'd like to get some ideas as to what everyone else is doing.

[Spec]

I've only heard of desking till re-medials qual is passed.

We did have a deputy come to the range and ask to borrow a gun since HERS was broken and jammed. She said it had been that way for a month. and yes she was 10-8 and in the varrio. needless to say she was told no and was pissed. she told her Sgt. the range staff was rude and disrespectful. The Sgt. called the range operator who told him the real deal.

She is not on the desk awaiting discipline hearing outcome...

[CaptMike]

Your given several opportunities to requal, but ultimately if you cant they take your firearm from you and reassign you to a non firearm detail. We have that option but other departments dont.

[ak_in_ca]

Ours don't get any kind of formal discipline or even desk duty its just strongly discouraged with no real consequences. It pisses me off! But supposedly that policy is being changed now, which I really am hoping for.

[nickbackouris]

Yea, we don't have any real disciple either. The failure is documented in the weapons unit database, but that's it.

It frustrating when supervisors and trainers fail, don't care, then remediate and it's like nothing happened. Meanwhile, don't back into a pole, they'll hang you out to dry. I just feel like with the liability involved with firearms training there should be more motivation to practice and pass.

I was curious is any depts do formal discipline, does it affect promotions, collateral duty assignments, etc.

[TARFU]

CDCR will pull you from any armed post assignment...towers, front gate, I/M transportation, or any position that "may" require handling of any departmental firearm, pending re-qual....you will get remedial and then three attempts to qual with that particular weapon, shotgun, Mini-14, S&W 38 (quit laughing) or Glock 40.....if you fail re-qual then dismissal is pending....however in 18 years never heard of anyone being dismissed due to quals....been several REAL close, but never heard of one....

[Axewound]

Yea, we don't have any real disciple either. The failure is documented in the weapons unit database, but that's it.

It frustrating when supervisors and trainers fail, don't care, then remediate and it's like nothing happened. Meanwhile, don't back into a pole, they'll hang you out to dry. I just feel like with the liability involved with firearms training there should be more motivation to practice and pass.

I was curious is any depts do formal discipline, does it affect promotions, collateral duty assignments, etc.

sounds like you work for the feds?

[Patrick Aherne]

You must consult your policy to find the answers to these questions. The answer varies by Department and their individual policy.

What it really sounds like you are asking is: why do my co-workers suck at shooting and tactical stuff?

[Midnightblue 72]

Score under the minimum, requal, same day and noted on individual range card. Requal is fail again, noted on range card and info from card is forwarded to their training sgt. supervisor (sgt) patrol station cmndr and the division chief.

Remediation then a requal. If the requal is a fail, a memo is forwarded up the CoC and can result in reclassification or termination.

[nickbackouris]

You must consult your policy to find the answers to these questions. The answer varies by Department and their individual policy.

I'm familiar with my policy and procedure, and I understand that other departments will vary, everyone knows that. I was trying to find out how others handle employees that fail a qualification, discipline wise, if any.

What it really sounds like you are asking is: why do my co-workers suck at shooting and tactical stuff?

Actually, that's not what I'm asking at all. What I'm asking, essentially, is do any departments ding their employees for not passing a qual, or do most simply document it.

Thanks for the useless, uninformed response though. I was waiting for one.

[tom2]

Fail qual. We coach and retry 2 more times that day

Schedule remediation soon after and give 3 attempts to pass

Fail the final re-qual, get a letter and placed in non gun related detail until next range date (quarterly)

We've had 2 go thru this cycle. No one failed two quarterly quals.....

[thumperfbc]

This is a timely issue in my department... it has been a "look the other way" thing for a long time. Our policy dictates an annual qual.

Patrol: 3 chances on a given day, remedial training scheduled very soon, 3 more chances. If they can't pass they are taken from an armed position until they can.

Custody: 3 chances on a given day. If you don't pass you will not work an armed position until the next range day (6 months). As most positions in this division are non-armed, this hasn't been an issue despite many employess out of compliance for EXTENDED periods.

It is changing. The update policy has not been finalized yet but it will be similar to this:
1: Scheduled range day, 3 chances. Fail? Generate a memo to your immediate supervisor detailing your failure. This removes you from armed assignments immediately. Training staff will also document.

2: Remedial within 3 weeks. 3 more chances... fail again? Write a memo. Blue slip. remain on a non-armed position. Training staff documents.

3: Remedial within 3 weeks. 3 more chances... fail again? Write a memo. Blue slip with unpaid days off, then back to desk-duty. Training staff documents.

4: Remedial again. 3 more chances. still failing? ??????? Not sure how this works here as it hasn't been done, but basically it's kicked up to admin whose hand we have now forced. We have documented training and remedial several times. The memo's written by the employee serve as documentation that they know they are not performing the basic duties of their job. Door is open to termination. We'll see what admin does. The opinion of training stafff is termination.

We'll see...

[thumperfbc]

As a related note, what is your passing score? We are at 80% required to pass much to the chargrin of the Range Master. Several years back we were at 100% (with an easier course of fire) but after some admin had trouble passing it suddenly became 80% and the course was modified to be a little more difficult. The Range Master's opinion is that this is opening the department up to additional liability as we are telling employees it's ok to miss 1 in 5 shots.... we all know all bullets go somewhere.

If we required 100% of the current course very few would pass. He would rather see an easier course at 100% for liability issues.

As it stands, there are 3 groups of employess "required" to qual at 100%.... Range Instructors, SWAT, and CERT (custodial "swat" team).... Of that the RI's and SWAT are good to go, but at least half of the CERT team fails to meet that 100% standard every time... a couple can barely qual at 80%.

[nickbackouris]

Our qual is very simple for the pistol, 26 rounds no further than 15yds. All 26 must be accounted for, and 21 of 26 must be in the bottle. We are on the verge of extending the qual out to 25 yards, but it's not in stone right now. We only started requiring all rounds be accounted for two years ago, which was another huge leap forward in accountability. We qual twice a year.

That being said, I'm not sure what we are doing to motivate employees to pass, hence the original question. Nothing really happens if you fail and eventually remediate. That employee isn't looked at any differently come promotion, training assignment, etc. I appreciate all the varying feedback on how others handle it.

A few follow up questions:

For those who don't pass remediation and are no longer allowed to work an armed position, does your department also revoke the employees ccw?

Do any of the ill affects of failing a qual have an influence when the employee puts in for other positions? Could a failed qual be the deciding factor in who gets a job? I'm sure in smaller departments word just simply gets around, but what about larger departments where a supervisor cant really just ask around and get info on a potential?

[Patrick Aherne]

I'm familiar with my policy and procedure, and I understand that other departments will vary, everyone knows that. I was trying to find out how others handle employees that fail a qualification, discipline wise, if any.



Actually, that's not what I'm asking at all. What I'm asking, essentially, is do any departments ding their employees for not passing a qual, or do most simply document it.

Thanks for the useless, uninformed response though. I was waiting for one.

The paths to upper management do not lead through the range.

You're looking for a way to motivate people, negatively, by providing consequences to failing range. I'm assuming you mean regular in-service quals for folks who have passed initial training/academy.

Wait till you get to the point where your agency's lawyer/counsel says, "Why are we having this problem?" And then your Chief/Administrator says, who came up with this program? Or, one of the agency's golden children/diversity hires fails miserably and plays the card they were born with.

Or, more likely, one of the administrators fails the qual and you have to take action against them. Have fun with that.

But, what do I know?