How Would You Handle This?

[KABA556]

My father and I were driving down the road in my truck when a woman talking on a cellphone drifted into our lane. He honked the horn at her and she pulled back into her lane but a few seconds later she drifted into our lane again, nearly hitting us. He gave her a "thumbs up" out the window, [not an obscene gesture, just a silly thumbs up] and a "way to go, good job" for her almost hitting us a second time, and he honked the horn again.

We pulled into a parking lot of a grocery store where we were planning to shop, noticing that she had followed us into the parking lot.

She pulled in behind us, jumped out of her car and began screaming, she used curse words, demanded to know who my father thought he was to dare to honk a horn at her, she then said, "you f****** hillbilly, I'll kill you, I'm going to kill you."


Note that my father and I were both lawfully carrying firearms but we neither displayed them, drew them, or mentioned we had them, but when she started talking about killing my father I immediately thought that "this might be the day when I have to draw and use my weapon, who knows if she's going to come up with a gun in a second or two..."

Somebody starts talking about killing your father because he honked a horn when they came into our lane and almost hit us, and you know you're dealing with an unstable and dangerously violent person who might come up with a gun from her purse or something.

Anyway, I called the police, they responded [we showed them our permits as required by the law], my father explained what had happened, the woman denied threatening my father, the police said, "well she denies that she made any sort of threat."

I then pointed to my dash cam and explained, "the entire incident is on dash cam, front and back view, audio and video, and both my father and I run digital pocket audio recorders, would you like copies?"

They were not remotely interested in having copies of the audio or the video. They told the woman to go on her way and then sat in the parking lot for about 4-5 minutes after she was gone [I could see them from inside the store near the meat counter where we were making a purchase].


Did this woman just get a pass for aggravated menacing?

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2903.21

2903.21 Aggravated menacing.
(A) No person shall knowingly cause another to believe that the offender will cause serious physical harm to the person or property of the other person, the other person's unborn, or a member of the other person's immediate family.

(B) Whoever violates this section is guilty of aggravated menacing. Except as otherwise provided in this division, aggravated menacing is a misdemeanor of the first degree.




I have video/audio of her screaming and swearing at my dad and shouting, "you f****** hillbilly, I'll kill you, I'm going to kill you."



If you were responding to such an incident/encounter, would you want copies of the video/audio and would you be charging the woman with anything and if so, what?


She was driving a fairly expensive car, probably around $50,000 dollars, and I feel she might have been connected in local politics or married to a man of some local influence.

[benjamin101677]

Question why would you be running dashcams? Front, back and side.

No offense that doesn't sound normal to me.

[4ME&MYHOUSE]

Connected. .... ya think?!

[KABA556]

Question why would you be running dashcams? Front, back and side.

No offense that doesn't sound normal to me.

Because we carry firearms for self-defense and we don't want to be in a Zimmerman case where it is a matter of "take my word for it, here's how it happened" the camera doesn't lie, it doesn't remember wrong, it doesn't forget details, it remembers/records everything.

I've also been in several accidents, one where I was rear-ended and the other party tried to make it like I spiked my brakes intentionally to get hit. Yes I did spike my brakes, because a delivery box type truck three cars ahead of me slammed on his brakes for some reason, and thus the car behind him braked, the car behind him braked, and so I had to brake. I met my responsibility, I managed to avoid hitting the guy in front of me because I leave enough distance, but the person behind me hit me. In fact the person who rear-ended me vaulted towards my car and began pounding on my windows threatening me and screaming that I was this and that, then denied it when the police came to the scene.



Anybody who carries a gun without running a dash cam in their vehicle and without carrying a pocket digital audio recorder is inviting a criminal trial.

I don't ever want to be in a situation of "he said, she said" I want to be in a situation where "here's the recording, it is what it is."


The world is full of people who would love to pull in front of me from a side street, running a red light, get hit, and then claim I caused the accident.

The world is full of people who would hit another individual and flee the scene.


I actually recorded a hit/run with my dash cam, the hit/run was against an unoccupied car but I followed the offender for a few hundred yards, long enough to get their plate on the camera and to call in the incident to the police and read the dispatcher the plate. It turned out that the owner of the vehicle was not interested in pressing the issue because his car had been struck repeatedly and was very old/banged up, but he was grateful I cared enough about helping a stranger to call the police and to offer them the recording of the incident. The officer seemed somewhat surprised that I would run a dash-cam but he seemed to agree it could be very helpful in some situations.

[Happyhappycamper]

Put it on youtube bro then post the link.

[bill_k_lopez]

I immediately thought that "this might be the day when I have to draw and use my weapon, who knows if she's going to come up with a gun in a second or two..."

Were you thinking about it or hoping for it?

Somebody starts talking about killing your father because he honked a horn when they came into our lane and almost hit us, and you know you're dealing with an unstable and dangerously violent person who might come up with a gun from her purse or something.

Uh - not really. Sounds like most Californian's.

Please see my signature quote.

[KABA556]

Question why would you be running dashcams? Front, back and side.

No offense that doesn't sound normal to me.

About six months ago I was driving in Cleveland, a real trashy part of Cleveland, trying to get back to the interstate. I don't go into Cleveland very often and I don't know my way around the city that well, I was there for a business meeting and had to go through a crappy part of the city to get to my destination and then to get back to the interstate.

I was turning left to get onto a particular road and one young male [a young black male] began to walk across the street in the cross walk, so I slowed down, not wanting to hit a pedestrian. However, his friend [another young black male] stopped on the side of the road, just about to enter the cross-walk, and he stooped down and hunched over, apparently pausing to tie his shoe lace. I decided to slow to an idle, not knowing if he was about to enter the street, by this time his friend had crossed the road to the other side. A few seconds went by and the man who seemed to be tying his shoe was still there on the sidewalk, not making any motions any more [I wasn't sure if he finished tying his shoe or if he was just crouched down for some random reason], so I slowly began to complete my turn.

Suddenly the man who had apparently been stooped/crouched down to tie his shoe vaulted up, lunging through the air, and went straight for the passenger door of my truck. It took me about 0.5 seconds to immediately realize, "this is a car jacking attempt" and I realized I had been foolish to let one guy cross the road and get on one side of me and another get stay on the other side of the road, I slammed down the gas, accelerating through the intersection at about 40-50 miles per hour, while beginning to draw my pistol from a shoulder holster, with my other hand on the wheel. I nearly struck the individual who vaulted from his crouched position and made a move for my door, but I was able to get away. I reacted so quickly that the other man, on the other side of me, wasn't able to spring his part of the trap.

The entire incident was on film, if I had struck that young man, you can bet that Al Sharpton and crew would be here protesting and screaming, "a poor defenseless young black man was just trying to cross the street when a paranoid racist white thug ran him over" or "he was just trying to open that young man's truck door to ask him for a ride."

If it had ended with violence, the incident would have been on recording and it would have showed that the man was struck while I was driving away to avoid his attempt to force his way into my truck, or that he was shot as he was smashing through the window, after he smashed through the window, or while he was presenting a weapon of his own. I don't believe the man on my right [passenger side] had a weapon, at least not that I was able to see, because he went straight for the door, he didn't mess around with trying to present a weapon and intimidate me into stopping/complying, but he was going right for that passenger door. I don't know why his partner wasn't fast enough to make his move, I guess I just responded to fast when I saw the man vault up from his "shoe tying" and move towards my door, I slammed down the accelerator.


As a gun owner who has a permit to carry a pistol, I have an uphill battle in that most of the legal establishment is hostile to self-defense. As a white male, particularly being conservative, I have a major problem if a non-white [particularly a black male] attacks me and I have to use lethal force in self-defense, because there is no shortage of race hustlers and race baiters who want to fan the flames of hatred while finding the next "justice for Trayvon" type case.

[benjamin101677]

As a law enforcement officer that would just scare the heck of me to pull up and see somebody with camera's running. Make me really wonder.

The section code you are reviewing to I have been around law enforcement since the early 1990's and I have never heard of anybody on my areas getting charged with that offense.

What you would probarly have at worse and most district attorneys would not charge it would be a Penal Code Section 422 Terrorist Threats against the person.

Usually easier to just send both parties on there ways and not waste the district attorney time.

What you need to worry about more, is your actions. When your carrying a concealed weapon you need to exercise some maturity when dealing with people on the roadway, I mean in this case you can speed up or slow down to avoid the person. No need to stick a thumb out or middle finger or what ever.

I know from my training and experience that if you would have had to use your weapons in this case, there would have been heavy review on what lead to this incident occurring. So the use of force may have been justified but the incidents leading up to it may have a lot of questions and loose you money and stuff.

You need to be the better people here and avoid issues.

[KABA556]

I immediately thought that "this might be the day when I have to draw and use my weapon, who knows if she's going to come up with a gun in a second or two..."

Were you thinking about it or hoping for it?

Actually, just listening to the audio, I urged my father to be calm, when he gave the "thumbs up" gesture, I said, "hey, both hands on the wheel, cool it, take it easy" and I pointed out, "she's following us, do we need to get the police?" and he said "good, let her follow us" and I said, "this could get ugly, what should we do?" and he said, "she's just a dumb b**** what's she going to do?"


After the stop in the parking lot, after she made her threat, and after the operator/dispatcher advised/told us to get back into the vehicle and remain there, I said to my dad a number of times, "she's still there, looking at us, I cannot see what she's doing now, for all I know she could be readying a gun, she could start shooting at us, why are we sitting with our backs to her, I don't like this, should we just leave?"

He said, "let her start shooting, it'll be the last thing she ever does."


When she was screaming she would kill my dad and that she would attack him, he said something like "good, that's real good, bring it, come on bring it, try me" and I said, "this is all on dash cam, I'm calling the police!" loud enough for her to hear it, and then I openly used my phone, so she had to know I was calling the police. She didn't seem to care, in fact on my recording, she actually screamed, "call the police, who cares."



I wanted to be out of there, gone, away from that situation, but I was the passenger, the passenger goes where the vehicle goes and the driver decides where the vehicle goes. It is possible she would have followed us home and I can understand if my dad didn't want her to know where we live.


My father's never been at fault in an accident, never been arrested for anything, never caused a fight, but he can get very upset if somebody gets ballistic because he honks at the horn at their bad driving or if he honks the horn to alert them they're about to strike us. We've had a number of incidents where people followed us for 5-10 miles just because he honked the horn when they came close to hitting us. If you heard the recordings, he's the one usually swearing under his breath and grumbling, and I'm usually the one suggesting that we divert, change our route, slow down, pull over, let them pass, etc. We had one guy who pulled in front of us, cutting of us, spiking his brakes, and my dad managed to avoid hitting him by spiking his brakes, but he immediately passed the guy, the guy and his friend started giving us obscene gestures and riding about 6 inches off our bumper, and while I suggested, "pulling over and letting them pass and go on their way" he just got angrier and angrier, "let them hit us, I'll sue" or "let them start something, I'll finish it."

I don't consider him an angry or a dangerous person, he hasn't even been in a fight since grade school, but people who follow him for 5-10 miles, repeatedly cutting him off, really get him upset. We've had some ugly situations, which is also one of the reasons I run a dash-cam, because even though he sometimes plays into their crap, he never starts anything, he never waves a gun, he never swerves to force them off the road, he never does anything violent, so if the situation escalates and violence results, it will be because they started the violence, and I want that on record, even though the record would probably show he was upset, grumbling, could have pulled over, etc.

[KABA556]

Put it on youtube bro then post the link.

I cannot do that-

I can decide to post video of myself on youtube, but I cannot make that decision for my father or for the idiot lady.

I doubt my father wants to be seen losing his cool on youtube, almost hoping that the confrontation escalates.

I doubt that woman wants to be seen screaming death threats at somebody in a parking lot because she drifted into their lane twice and they blew the horn at her.


My main deal is that I'm surprised the cops didn't want the footage, I thought they'd want to document everything and get all available information/data.

[Happyhappycamper]

Well then this thread is over, in fact I'm calling bull****...

Next.

[FLIGHT762]

The law you posted is OHIO law. Did this occur in Ohio? If you're asking California L/E Officers here what they would do, our laws here are a bit different. You ask here what the offender would be charged with and are asking if the woman got a pass on "Aggravated Menacing". In California, we don't have an "Aggravated Menacing" law. We have a criminal threats statute, but it isn't relevant here. A California L/E Officer can't answer your question.

What you had was a mouthy Witch that actually didn't do anything overtly to harm you or your Dad. I guess you're disappointed the Police didn't haul her off in handcuffs. If you feel you didn't get justice, you could always go down to the Police station where this occurred with clear copies on a DVD from your dash cam and ask to speak to a supervisor and show them the video.


It sounds to me the Police handled the situation correctly, got the Woman on her way, and sat around for a few minutes after to be sure she didn't come back. Both of you are grown men and were carrying firearms at the time. You could have protected yourselves, if forced to.

[Invisible_Dave]

I'm confused on the question, and frankly am to lazy to read it again. Are you asking for advise from an on duty or off duty perspective?

[KABA556]

As a law enforcement officer that would just scare the heck of me to pull up and see somebody with camera's running. Make me really wonder.

T

Police run cameras, right?

Banks run cameras, gas stations, most major big box retail stores.


This is 2013, everybody with a smart phone has the potential to run a camera.


I'm not interested in running a camera AFTER an accident or AFTER a self-defense encounter, I want everything leading up to it.


Why would it scare you to see somebody running cameras?


I run a camera because I don't ever want to be in Zimmerman's shoes, having no witnesses to back him up as to what happened 10 seconds before the trigger was pulled and the time the trigger was pulled. That's one of the main reasons.

[KABA556]

Well then this thread is over, in fact I'm calling bull****...

Next.

Well I'd make audio available to a certified LEO, and I'd make video available once I can blur faces and license plates, but I'm not going to post those things for the entire world to see.

This is 2013 and most of corporate America is hostile to the 2nd amendment, especially concealed carry. I'm not going to make any problems for my dad, or for myself for that matter, by plastering stuff on the web.