Providing LE With Identification

[retiredAFcop]

Then don't perpetuate it.

I'm not perpetuating it.

I recognize its existence, and am willing to look for the causes, and try to address them - rather than simply trying to deny those causal factors exist.

Being the one willing to point out that the emperor is naked doesn't make you the one who is responsible for the emperor's nudity.

[RedVines]

I'm not perpetuating it.

I recognize its existence, and am willing to look for the causes, and try to address them - rather than simply trying to deny those causal factors exist.

Being the one willing to point out that the emperor is naked doesn't make you the one who is responsible for the emperor's nudity.

Have you considered that one of the primary causal factors in the people's dislike of the police is the deep-seated mistrust and defiance of government that has been firmly embedded into the American political psyche since the founding of this country and that the police is the most quintessential manifestation of government? Or are we really going to reduce the issue down to simply "cops are ***holes".

[slayer55]

Well first off i don't want to tell you i'm giving you my law enforcement advise since i am not an officer yet im making it clear from the get go this is just my personal experience with law enforcement on a ride along with the san Bernadino sheriffs department and pretty much that is what we did most of the night when our calls slowed down. We drove through residential streets looking for break lights or people in vehicles just parked on the side of the road. We would run the plate and if it didn't belong in that neighborhood we would pull up behind them and ask what there doing and ask for id the deptuy i road with said that being in a neighborhood where you dont live stopped on the side of the road gave us enough pc to do an id check on the driver. If he was clean and had a somewhat valid reason to be there we would let them go if he didn't we escorted them out we had to do that to 2 vehicles because they said they were there to see a friend but didn't know what house was theres friends and kept changing it on us.I don't know if that helps i just thought i would put it out there since it sounds like it was a similar situation.

[Notorious]

Well first off i don't want to tell you i'm giving you my law enforcement advise since i am not an officer yet im making it clear from the get go this is just my personal experience with law enforcement on a ride along with the san Bernadino sheriffs department and pretty much that is what we did most of the night when our calls slowed down. We drove through residential streets looking for break lights or people in vehicles just parked on the side of the road. We would run the plate and if it didn't belong in that neighborhood we would pull up behind them and ask what there doing and ask for id the deptuy i road with said that being in a neighborhood where you dont live stopped on the side of the road gave us enough pc to do an id check on the driver. If he was clean and had a somewhat valid reason to be there we would let them go if he didn't we escorted them out we had to do that to 2 vehicles because they said they were there to see a friend but didn't know what house was theres friends and kept changing it on us.I don't know if that helps i just thought i would put it out there since it sounds like it was a similar situation.

That's called good proactive police work. He probably saved a few homeowners from some grief that night.

[retiredAFcop]

Have you considered that one of the primary causal factors in the people's dislike of the police is the deep-seated mistrust and defiance of government that has been firmly embedded into the American political psyche since the founding of this country and that the police is the most quintessential manifestation of government? Or are we really going to reduce the issue down to simply "cops are ***holes".

How does your "blame it on the underlying foundation of our country" hypothesis square with the idea that more people seemed to be supportive of cops 10 years ago, and even more 20 years ago, and still more 30 years ago (and so on)?
This could just be one of those areas where we "remember" things as being better in the past, even if they were the same. Or, we could be seeing a change in public opinions based on other factors. Some of those potential factors are in the power of LEOs to change, others aren't. Why be so resistant to doing simple things that might help to improve the situation?

[TRICKSTER]

How does your "blame it on the underlying foundation of our country" hypothesis square with the idea that more people seemed to be supportive of cops 10 years ago, and even more 20 years ago, and still more 30 years ago (and so on)?
This could just be one of those areas where we "remember" things as being better in the past, even if they were the same. Or, we could be seeing a change in public opinions based on other factors. Some of those potential factors are in the power of LEOs to change, others aren't. Why be so resistant to doing simple things that might help to improve the situation?

I don't know if it's because you don't have a clue as to the difference between working on a military base and a city or if you are intentionally posting information that is contrary to civilian police work, but when you make comments like this, "If the officer was unable (or unwilling) to articulate a reasonable suspicion at the time of the incident, it seems reasonable to assume that the officer had no articulable reasonable suspicion at that time, and simple made one up later, with coaching from friends." pretend that you know what you are discussing, and that your advise covers all contacts, all you are doing is encouraging non LEO members here to take an action that may end up with their turning a simple contact into an arrest. You are helping no one and giving poor advise that if followed, could end up badly for those who you are attempting to impress.

[RedVines]

Some of those potential factors are in the power of LEOs to change, others aren't. Why be so resistant to doing simple things that might help to improve the situation?

Not that I'm resistant, but as long as I'm not contributing to the bad PR problem, I'd rather spend my time doing actual police work than trying futilely to improve a situation I have no control over. You have the luxury of sitting back and ponder about police work as if it's Plato's Cave Allegory in your free time from your academic ivory tower. I push a radio car for a living. I don't have that luxury, nor am I interested in it.

[retiredAFcop]

Not that I'm resistant, but as long as I'm not contributing to the bad PR problem, I'd rather spend my time doing actual police work than trying futilely to improve a situation I have no control over. You have the luxury of sitting back and ponder about police work as if it's Plato's Cave Allegory in your free time from your academic ivory tower. I push a radio car for a living. I don't have that luxury, nor am I interested in it.

It is sad that you feel you have no control over how the public sees you.

[retiredAFcop]

I don't know if it's because you don't have a clue as to the difference between working on a military base and a city or if you are intentionally posting information that is contrary to civilian police work, but when you make comments like this, "If the officer was unable (or unwilling) to articulate a reasonable suspicion at the time of the incident, it seems reasonable to assume that the officer had no articulable reasonable suspicion at that time, and simple made one up later, with coaching from friends." pretend that you know what you are discussing, and that your advise covers all contacts, all you are doing is encouraging non LEO members here to take an action that may end up with their turning a simple contact into an arrest. You are helping no one and giving poor advise that if followed, could end up badly for those who you are attempting to impress.

I may be wrong, but since I've heard the same thing (or very similar things) in face to face, real world discussions with people ranging from CA POST course instructors, CA cops, Federal cops, KY cops, GA cops, Army MP instructors, Air Force SF instructors, and various lawyers (military and civilian), and DAs, my assumption was that it was good info.
Maybe things have changed over time, maybe it's just that they all worked in areas at where least some judges are more liberal, so wanted to be particularly careful to "cross their T's and dot their I's".

People have told me that it's particularly frustrating to see an otherwise solid case get thrown out due to an officer skipping steps at the start, and allowing a bunch of evidence to be suppressed as a result.

[RedVines]

I may be wrong, but since I've heard the same thing (or very similar things) in face to face, real world discussions with people ranging from CA POST course instructors, CA cops, Federal cops, KY cops, GA cops, Army MP instructors, Air Force SF instructors, and various lawyers (military and civilian), and DAs, my assumption was that it was good info.
Maybe things have changed over time, maybe it's just that they all worked in areas at where least some judges are more liberal, so wanted to be particularly careful to "cross their T's and dot their I's".

People have told me that it's particularly frustrating to see an otherwise solid case get thrown out due to an officer skipping steps at the start, and allowing a bunch of evidence to be suppressed as a result.

That may be part of the thinking process of a DA deciding whether or not to rebook a charge, but it is certainly NOT a legal opinion. The reality is DAs drop cases all the time for various reasons. DAs are so overworked that they only want to go with cases where they can get an easy conviction, thereby keeping their conviction rates high. More often than not, an arresting officer becomes a convenient excuse for them to drop a case. Also not articulating reasonable suspicion to a detainee is not "skipping steps". If an officer fails to articulate reasonable suspicion in an arrest report then horse on him, he has to eat his mistake.

To automatically assume that the arrest is somehow no good because a DA didn't charge it is unrealistic. I had a recent arrest of a gang associate for carrying a foot long 12 inch knife that stemmed from a Terry Stop and patdown search for weapons. I knew the case was going to get dropped, but I refuse to be a DA's scapegoat, so I spent a whole page in my report narrative articulating my reasonable suspicion to detain and pat search, both of which were rock solid. When i got the case discharge paperwork, instead of the normal "questionable search and seizure" discharge code for these types of cases, it read "severity of crime does not justify cost of prosecution". So please don't assume that because a case is drop it somehow implies incompetence on part of the officer.

[RedVines]

It is sad that you feel you have no control over how the public sees you.

Why is it sad? You said it yourself, there are some factors that LEOs have no control over.

Sir, allow me to be candid. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that your comment carried no arrogant dismissive undertones, because honestly that was my first reaction when i read it. I think you can tell by now that I took my education seriously before I became a police officer, so it serves you no purpose to make comments insinuating that I am somehow incapable of thinking about law enforcement on a philosophical level just because I'm a lowly patrol officer.

I've taken into consideration all the posts you've made in this and a couple other threads and here's something you ought to think about. As much as you think your experiences as an MP and a teacher somehow places you in some sort of unique position to offer insight into civilian law enforcement because you think you stand in some sort of "middle ground" between a civilian and a police officer. The reality is it doesn't. You have not experienced the type of police work that we civilian LEOs do everyday, that much is apparent to most of the civilian LEOs here, including myself. And without demeaning your profession, being a school teacher really doesn't give you any special qualifications for understanding civilian police work. You have yet to demonstrate how your opinion is somehow more informed than Joe Citizen's or how your opinions helps bridge the philosophical chasm between citizens and police officers which you keep perpetuating. Not to say that your opinion is invalid and does not deserve respect, but know that it is simply just another layman's opinion. Just as how my opinions on MPs and teachers are just another layman's opinion and yours would be an informed one.

I hope you realize by now that you DO NOT understand civilian police work like you think you do. So please, don't "teach" others what you don't know, both here and in your classroom, and more importantly, please don't represent yourself as someone who understands civilian law enforcement. You may think your little academic mental exercises are somehow educational because it "gets people to think", but you really haven't provided any ground-breaking enlightened insight beyond what any college freshman can regurgitate on a social studies term paper. And as much as you think you're just promoting harmless discussion, let me be clear and echo what several other LEOs here have already said to you. What you are doing could get a civilian in legal trouble or worse, get a police officer hurt or killed.

[keenkeen]

[Notorious]

It is sad that you feel you have no control over how the public sees you.

You prove the point very well that some people just won't change their mind about LE no matter what.

[RedVines]

Point taken. This made me laugh though. Thanks.

[Eikbyrnir]

Why is it sad? You said it yourself, there are some factors that LEOs have no control over.

Sir, allow me to be candid. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that your comment carried no arrogant dismissive undertones, because honestly that was my first reaction when i read it. I think you can tell by now that I took my education seriously before I became a police officer, so it serves you no purpose to make comments insinuating that I am somehow incapable of thinking about law enforcement on a philosophical level just because I'm a lowly patrol officer.

I've taken into consideration all the posts you've made in this and a couple other threads and here's something you ought to think about. As much as you think your experiences as an MP and a teacher somehow places you in some sort of unique position to offer insight into civilian law enforcement because you think you stand in some sort of "middle ground" between a civilian and a police officer. The reality is it doesn't. You have not experienced the type of police work that we civilian LEOs do everyday, that much is apparent to most of the civilian LEOs here, including myself. And without demeaning your profession, being a school teacher really doesn't give you any special qualifications for understanding civilian police work. You have yet to demonstrate how your opinion is somehow more informed than Joe Citizen's or how your opinions helps bridge the philosophical chasm between citizens and police officers which you keep perpetuating. Not to say that your opinion is invalid and does not deserve respect, but know that it is simply just another layman's opinion. Just as how my opinions on MPs and teachers are just another layman's opinion and yours would be an informed one.

I hope you realize by now that you DO NOT understand civilian police work like you think you do. So please, don't "teach" others what you don't know, both here and in your classroom, and more importantly, please don't represent yourself as someone who understands civilian law enforcement. You may think your little academic mental exercises are somehow educational because it "gets people to think", but you really haven't provided any ground-breaking enlightened insight beyond what any college freshman can regurgitate on a social studies term paper. And as much as you think you're just promoting harmless discussion, let me be clear and echo what several other LEOs here have already said to you. What you are doing could get a civilian in legal trouble or worse, get a police officer hurt or killed.

This is why I've stopped speaking in this thread. You've made some good points. I don't know how it went it the direction it has, but you have a lot more patience than I do Red.