Providing LE With Identification

[RedVines]

Wrong. I don't have to articulate anything to a subject right then and there in order to gain his/her compliance or to prove to him/her that I have a legitimate reason to detain him/her. It can also be entirely reasonable that I search, handcuff, And detain a subject in the back of my car before explaining anything. That being said, most of the time, I would explain while detaining or right after safely detaining someone. Once I establish that a subject is likely not a threat and/or is in a more difficult position to present a threat, I can start relaxing with him/her/them. Btw, FWIW, I can't recall a time when I didn't make the effort to explain Why or What...

Agreed. The point of initial contact out in the street is not the time nor the place to get into a legal debate with a stranger. Officer safety above all else.

[Notorious]

As I have told certain street side lawyers... I am not out here to hold court with you. You can debate it with the judge later.

[retiredAFcop]

Wrong. I don't have to articulate anything to a subject right then and there in order to gain his/her compliance or to prove to him/her that I have a legitimate reason to detain him/her. It can also be entirely reasonable that I search, handcuff, And detain a subject in the back of my car before explaining anything. That being said, most of the time, I would explain while detaining or right after safely detaining someone. Once I establish that a subject is likely not a threat and/or is in a more difficult position to present a threat, I can start relaxing with him/her/them. Btw, FWIW, I can't recall a time when I didn't make the effort to explain Why or What...

As I said:

Sure there will be times when you aren't going to be able to explain things - but if we aren't talking about some sort of extreme threat situation, there's always time for courteous and professional communication.

But whenever you don't articulate, it gives the subject reason to believe that you can't articulate (leaving them with a bad impression of you, your agency, and cops in general), and leaves an opening for a defendant to claim that you couldn't articulate, even if you had tried.

I've never had a situation where a subject asked, and I wasn't able to explain it to them. But yes, there are situations where they aren't going to ask, or where the suspicious activity/item is so blatant that you have to act before engaging in some course of action to prevent violence etc. But these are not "asking for ID" situations.

Asking for ID is teh topic of the thread, and when a citizen is asked, "Why do you want my ID" is a reasonable question for them to ask the officer in return. If the officer can't answer it, right there, on the spot, they make their request for ID seem unreasonable to the subject, to any witnesses, and to people they tell about the encounter. That creates a public relations problem based on perception of the LEO's professionalism. It's often not enough to simply be within the letter of the law, if your conduct prejudices people against the law and law enforcement personnel, you have not been fully successful in your job. LEOs are most effective when they are able to project both legal and moral authority.

I think you would agree that how LEAs and LEOs are viewed by members of the public has an impact on public safety, officer safety, and public support for LE in general.

I hope that you would agree that it is important for officers not to fall into the trap of reinforcing negative stereotypes that are harmful to LE.

By the end of your response, you are pretty much agreeing with what I have said, and showing that it works well for you.

most of the time, I would explain while detaining or right after safely detaining someone.

FWIW, I can't recall a time when I didn't make the effort to explain Why or What...

I'm guessing you see a benefit in gaining consent or reducing resistance by doing this.

Unfortunately, those disposed to be distrustful of LEOs will probably not get to that part of your post, but will focus on only the first few lines.

Read the first few lines of your reply, and honestly tell me whether or not that sounds like a guy with the kind of aggressive attitude that reinforces negative stereotypes about cops.

Wrong. I don't have to articulate anything to a subject right then and there in order to gain his/her compliance

Yes, you can always gain compliance by moving up the force ladder, but why not make a reasonable effort to gain consent first? Isn't a consensual encounter the kind that is often the most fruitful and rewarding - both in the short and long term?

And with many citizens, you could probably gain consent by just sharing this insight:

Once I establish that a subject is likely not a threat and/or is in a more difficult position to present a threat, I can start relaxing with him/her/them.

"I'm Sgt RetiredAFCop, as you see on my name tag/plate. If I know who you are, I will feel safer with you, be more relaxed, and this whole encounter will go more smoothly for both of us, so can we get that out of the way by having you tell me who you are, or showing me your ID?"

[BoJackUSMC]

I just dont understand why people get so upset when officers ask someone for their ID. I have no problem showing my ID to LEOs. They are just doing their job.

That's just me... I got nothing to hide...

[55chevypost]

RetiredAFcop, if you dont mind me asking, is AF mean you were a MP? If so, I can only assume, since I wasnt MP, that the type of people you encountered on a daily basis were slightly less threatening/combative than say a local leo. I am not for a second downplaying or disrespecting the seriousness/importance of your duties, dont think that. But I was USMC, and know from my own experiences on both sides, military personel and others on base will tend to completely cooperate with MPs. Your post was thought out and has true validity. I can say without bating an eye, coppers in general dont want to fight/OIS, ive had my share of both. We arent the toughest guys walking and the badge doesnt get you any closer to being a tough guy. I will concede its been a bit since I have been in the field, but when I was, I was challenged to fight almost daily. It hurts and healing gets harder the older you get. I believe most coppers feel the same and have learned to use verbal judo and the least amount of both physical,verbal force needed. Sometimes, it just doesnt matter how nice you are, people will hate us for what you do. Again, no disrespect sir, but I believe an MP and local LEO have far different experience.

[Steveo8]

I just dont understand why people get so upset when officers ask someone for their ID. I have no problem showing my ID to LEOs. They are just doing their job.

That's just me... I got nothing to hide...

OK, so let me put forth a scenerio for you. You are standing on the curb in front of your house, a two LEO unit pulls up across street the for a contact with one of the neighbors across the street. One of the LEOS goes to the house requesting the contact, the other LEO remains with the unit. While the contact is occurring you receive or make a phone call the LEO that has remained with the unit then calls you to come across the street and provide ID. Are you ok with this as stated? And for the record this was a true encounter.

[Eikbyrnir]

As I said:



But whenever you don't articulate, it gives the subject reason to believe that you can't articulate (leaving them with a bad impression of you, your agency, and cops in general), and leaves an opening for a defendant to claim that you couldn't articulate, even if you had tried.

I've never had a situation where a subject asked, and I wasn't able to explain it to them. But yes, there are situations where they aren't going to ask, or where the suspicious activity/item is so blatant that you have to act before engaging in some course of action to prevent violence etc. But these are not "asking for ID" situations.

Asking for ID is teh topic of the thread, and when a citizen is asked, "Why do you want my ID" is a reasonable question for them to ask the officer in return. If the officer can't answer it, right there, on the spot, they make their request for ID seem unreasonable to the subject, to any witnesses, and to people they tell about the encounter. That creates a public relations problem based on perception of the LEO's professionalism. It's often not enough to simply be within the letter of the law, if your conduct prejudices people against the law and law enforcement personnel, you have not been fully successful in your job. LEOs are most effective when they are able to project both legal and moral authority.

I think you would agree that how LEAs and LEOs are viewed by members of the public has an impact on public safety, officer safety, and public support for LE in general.

I hope that you would agree that it is important for officers not to fall into the trap of reinforcing negative stereotypes that are harmful to LE.

By the end of your response, you are pretty much agreeing with what I have said, and showing that it works well for you.




I'm guessing you see a benefit in gaining consent or reducing resistance by doing this.

Unfortunately, those disposed to be distrustful of LEOs will probably not get to that part of your post, but will focus on only the first few lines.

Read the first few lines of your reply, and honestly tell me whether or not that sounds like a guy with the kind of aggressive attitude that reinforces negative stereotypes about cops.


Yes, you can always gain compliance by moving up the force ladder, but why not make a reasonable effort to gain consent first? Isn't a consensual encounter the kind that is often the most fruitful and rewarding - both in the short and long term?

And with many citizens, you could probably gain consent by just sharing this insight:
"I'm Sgt RetiredAFCop, as you see on my name tag/plate. If I know who you are, I will feel safer with you, be more relaxed, and this whole encounter will go more smoothly for both of us, so can we get that out of the way by having you tell me who you are, or showing me your ID?"

I can appreciate what you're saying, I by no means said not to explain yourself in a detention setting, all I said was you don't HAVE to. I was an MP when I was in the miltary, and there's a different way of doing things in the military then there is in state LEAs. Especially when you were dealing with officers or members with a higher rank then you. A lot of times, yeah to get what you needed done you had to explain yourself.

I was a police officer in Dallas, and my beat was one of the worst in the city, state and even up there in the country. I did not have time to explain myself to individuals I had detained because most of the time, I knew I already had probable cause to arrest if I had to and I immedietly needed to ensure mine and my partner's safety. After I gained compliance, performed a pat or full search and had either an ID or their personal information and I felt it was safe, I explained what was going on.

I stayed professional the entire time, even before explaining why I stopped them afterwards, but I needed to focus more on making sure they were not going to be violent or that they didnt have a weapon on them. If they immediately became agitated about why I was stopping them, I would take a moment and tell them they were breaking a law or that their actions were suspicious and then reiterate that I needed their compliance.

Where I'm at in CA now I continue using this same method and I've had 0 complaints and no problems with the way I work.

I believe every LEO in this thread has said much the same thing, ensure officer safety first, and then worry about any ruffled feathers. I will gladly piss someone off and worry about the complaint later, than be at risk or risk the safety of my partners at the time.

[Notorious]

OK, so let me put forth a scenerio for you. You are standing on the curb in front of your house, a two LEO unit pulls up across street the for a contact with one of the neighbors across the street. One of the LEOS goes to the house requesting the contact, the other LEO remains with the unit. While the contact is occurring you receive or make a phone call the LEO that has remained with the unit then calls you to come across the street and provide ID. Are you ok with this as stated? And for the record this was a true encounter.

I would gladly ask the officer to wait for me while I go inside the house to get my ID since I live right here but I don't usually walk around in my house clothes with my wallet or ID in the pocket... if my shorts or sweats even has pockets.

I've had similar scenarios happen, and as soon as I tell the cops I live there, they don't even bother.

I also was chilling with my friend in front of his house talking into the late hours a few times and cops rolled by and asked us what we were doing. One time we showed them our ID before they even asked and they just left and the other time I said I'm with my friend and he lives here and they just left without asking for ID. For the record, my friend is also a cop so we know the drill.

I don't have any problems identifying myself. No point in escalating for nothing just because... and it raises the suspicions for the cop for no reason other than just to be difficult. If people stop trying to be difficult to each other, the world would be a way better place.

[BoJackUSMC]

I would gladly ask the officer to wait for me while I go inside the house to get my ID since I live right here but I don't usually walk around in my house clothes with my wallet or ID in the pocket... if my shorts or sweats even has pockets.

I've had similar scenarios happen, and as soon as I tell the cops I live there, they don't even bother.

I also was chilling with my friend in front of his house talking into the late hours a few times and cops rolled by and asked us what we were doing. One time we showed them our ID before they even asked and they just left and the other time I said I'm with my friend and he lives here and they just left without asking for ID. For the record, my friend is also a cop so we know the drill.

I don't have any problems identifying myself. No point in escalating for nothing just because... and it raises the suspicions for the cop for no reason other than just to be difficult. If people stop trying to be difficult to each other, the world would be a way better place.

^This
Once again I have no problem showing my ID to LEOs. They are just doing their job.

[Samuelx]

^This
Once again I have no problem showing my ID to LEOs. They are just doing their job.

THIS ^! (even though I KNOW I'm one of the good guys)

[Samuelx]

If people stop trying to be difficult to each other, the world would be a way better place.

THIS ^ too!

[Samuelx]

As I said:

But whenever you don't articulate, it gives the subject reason to believe that you can't articulate (leaving them with a bad impression of you, your agency, and cops in general), and leaves an opening for a defendant to claim that you couldn't articulate, even if you had tried.

I've never had a situation where a subject asked, and I wasn't able to explain it to them. But yes, there are situations where they aren't going to ask, or where the suspicious activity/item is so blatant that you have to act before engaging in some course of action to prevent violence etc. But these are not "asking for ID" situations.

Asking for ID is teh topic of the thread, and when a citizen is asked, "Why do you want my ID" is a reasonable question for them to ask the officer in return. If the officer can't answer it, right there, on the spot, they make their request for ID seem unreasonable to the subject, to any witnesses, and to people they tell about the encounter. That creates a public relations problem based on perception of the LEO's professionalism. It's often not enough to simply be within the letter of the law, if your conduct prejudices people against the law and law enforcement personnel, you have not been fully successful in your job. LEOs are most effective when they are able to project both legal and moral authority.

I think you would agree that how LEAs and LEOs are viewed by members of the public has an impact on public safety, officer safety, and public support for LE in general.

I hope that you would agree that it is important for officers not to fall into the trap of reinforcing negative stereotypes that are harmful to LE.

By the end of your response, you are pretty much agreeing with what I have said, and showing that it works well for you.

I'm guessing you see a benefit in gaining consent or reducing resistance by doing this.

Unfortunately, those disposed to be distrustful of LEOs will probably not get to that part of your post, but will focus on only the first few lines.

Read the first few lines of your reply, and honestly tell me whether or not that sounds like a guy with the kind of aggressive attitude that reinforces negative stereotypes about cops.

Yes, you can always gain compliance by moving up the force ladder, but why not make a reasonable effort to gain consent first? Isn't a consensual encounter the kind that is often the most fruitful and rewarding - both in the short and long term?

And with many citizens, you could probably gain consent by just sharing this insight:
"I'm Sgt RetiredAFCop, as you see on my name tag/plate. If I know who you are, I will feel safer with you, be more relaxed, and this whole encounter will go more smoothly for both of us, so can we get that out of the way by having you tell me who you are, or showing me your ID?"

[retiredAFcop]

RetiredAFcop, if you dont mind me asking, is AF mean you were a MP? If so, I can only assume, since I wasnt MP, that the type of people you encountered on a daily basis were slightly less threatening/combative than say a local leo. I am not for a second downplaying or disrespecting the seriousness/importance of your duties, dont think that. But I was USMC, and know from my own experiences on both sides, military personel and others on base will tend to completely cooperate with MPs. Your post was thought out and has true validity. I can say without bating an eye, coppers in general dont want to fight/OIS, ive had my share of both. We arent the toughest guys walking and the badge doesnt get you any closer to being a tough guy. I will concede its been a bit since I have been in the field, but when I was, I was challenged to fight almost daily. It hurts and healing gets harder the older you get. I believe most coppers feel the same and have learned to use verbal judo and the least amount of both physical,verbal force needed. Sometimes, it just doesnt matter how nice you are, people will hate us for what you do. Again, no disrespect sir, but I believe an MP and local LEO have far different experience.

Every cop has a different experience than every other cop.

I have a lot of friends who are (or were) civilian cops, in various jurisdictions. We sometimes josh around a bit about our agencies and who is the bigger bad-***. I accept with humor the fact that being a military cop (USAF Security Forces) puts me on the low end of the pecking order - and laughed when I had a fan of the Jack Reacher novels tell me that "military cops are the most bad-*** cops ever, because they have to deal with trained killers." (I laughed because the first part of my military LE career was mostly spent guarding facilities and breaking up bar fights before they got ugly - not the most high-speed police work in the universe).

A lot of guys I went to high school with ended up as cops, and since I retired (early) from the military, we get into discussions that they would normally avoid having with non-cops. In a time when many LEOs seem to feel socially cut off from mainstream society, I get to act as a sounding board because I have one foot in each camp - I am not in the same kind of "cop society" as they are, but I understand their concerns much better than most other non-Peace Officers (some people have a similar relationship with non-sworn personnel in their agency or with reserve officers). They can also share concerns with me without fear of gossip within their own departments, because I'm an outsider - but one who isn't totally clueless.

There are a lot of factors that will make a difference on your job experience and who you have to deal with:

Are you military or civilian? A small town cop, big city, deputy, highway patrol/state trooper, campus cop, FBI, ATF, specialty agency, etc?

What part of the state/country do you work in? What division? What is your beat? What shift do you work? Do you have a specialty? Are you (officially or not) the "go to guy" on your shift for certain types of calls? What is the crime rate? What types of crime are prevalent? How is your agency viewed by the public? What policies/strategies do you use? Is your agency more pro-active, or reactive about various things? What is your relationship with neighboring agencies? Are you alone or partnered? How long is the average response for backup?

What do you look like? Body type, skin tone, features, etc.? What languages are spoken in the community you serve, and what languages do you speak? Do you look and speak like the people in the population you serve, or are you an obvious "outsider"?

What is your basic philosophy of police work? Are you still doing the job for the same reasons as when you started? How are your interpersonal communication skills? Are you likeable? Do you intimidate people? Do people see you as having a "chip on your shoulder"?

These are all things that will make a difference in your experience while working in LE. And these are all reasons why no two LEOs are going to have identical experiences during their careers - but we all have at least one or two areas of common ground.

When I respond to threads, I am not just using my personal experiences as a military cop, but also the experiences of my friends who work in various forms of LE, and also my experiences as a citizen (Yes, I have been pulled over. Yes, I have been asked to identify myself. Yes, I have experienced both professional and unprofessional treatment by cops from different agencies.).

[Press Check]

Having a hard time understanding consensual contact.

If a resident calls LE to report a car parked across the street, and I happen to be the one sitting in that car, when LE makes intitial contact, is the contact consensual, or am I to assume that I am being immediately detained and questioned based on the fact that the contact was initiated by a call?

If the contact is in fact consensual, at what point does a civilian know that they are being temporarily detained? If the initial contact equates to being immediately detained, should the civilian expect that LE immediately articulate why they are being detained?

[Steveo8]

Personally I would think that someone calling in a strange car would be a detention and there fore not what I would call consensual.