SWAT AR-15's full auto?

[KWalkerM]

CA Game Wardens and Livermore Police is semi auto, no select fire. I also heard DFG is ditching the m14s and going with .308 AR10s

[oddjob]

I carried a H&K MP-5, H&K 53 and a M-4 all with full auto capabilities. I also had a Benelli 14" shotgun, but turned it back in....Didn't like it.

My old agency has a Thompson SMG in the armory. What happened was when the Gun Control Act of 1968 passed my agency did not register all their old full auto toys. When it came time to buy new guns the agency could not legally "trade in" the full auto weapons and were stuck with them (this is what I was told). I didn't mind one bit because I got to shoot that thing a lot. It was a paperwork mistake that my agency made as well as others.

[coyotebait]

My cousin is a SWAT officer, his issued rifle is a Colt Commando M16-A1. They did swap the upper to a flat top with a 14 inch barrel.

[Notorious]

Select fire 3 shot burst weapons can be relatively common or sometimes, 2 shot bursts with the MP family of weapons. That feature is very useful in CQB provided that you train with it and use it properly to put a burst on target faster than you can pull the trigger twice or three times.

Full full auto as in the fun button rock n roll feature... yes, there are LE guns with that but real use in LE applications are very limited, if any... unless you can be sure of the backdrop and you have a need to let the lead fly and are ready for the consequences that follow every single bullet.

In short, LE hardly has a suppressive fire lay down a wall of bullets situation like a military operation where you have an all out firefight. Even the biggest firefight in recent LE history like North Hollywood or Waco... you have a lot of civilians in the area which prevent you from going all out.

[yzErnie]

firing in full auto isn't accurate

Bad info. In a close defense situation, such as a SWAT entry, they are amazingly accurate.

[alfred1222]

Bad info. In a close defense situation, such as a SWAT entry, they are amazingly accurate.

I'm sorry, but firing in full auto (more than the 2 rnd or 3 rnd burst) isn't as accurate as firing in burst or semi auto. You sacrifice control for firepower. Furthermore, if SWAT kicks down someone's door, I really hope they don't start spraying and praying.

[Notorious]

Depends on the weapon and training. An Uzi, in the hands of someone moderately trained, can unleash all 32 rounds full auto inside an 8" circle at distances up to 10-15 yards. I've seen it done, I've done it myself. Not saying that out would be something I would do in a LE scenario, but out is not impossible.

[yzErnie]

I'm sorry, but firing in full auto (more than the 2 rnd or 3 rnd burst) isn't as accurate as firing in burst or semi auto. You sacrifice control for firepower. Furthermore, if SWAT kicks down someone's door, I really hope they don't start spraying and praying.

I guess all my live fire training with said weapon on tactical and dynamic entries was a dream then.

[tanksoldier]

But but but.....I thought cops with full auto was just a recent thing, y'know, the militarization of law enforcement???

"Militarization" is far more about mindset, thought processes and training than equipment... tho equipment CAN be a measure of the training and mindset.

The military uses force offensively, collateral damage is generally acceptable and almost always the enemy is not someone the military also has a duty to protect... and when it is the military often declines to act or declines to use "military" options, instead choosing more law enforcement-like tactics and options. (LA riots vs Iraq).

Law enforcement is supposed to use force defensively, when other options are limited or non-existent, keeping in mind that the subject is STILL an individual the officers are sworn to protect and serve.

Instances are increasing of law enforcement utilizing military options, choosing deadly force first or early in the decision process, as well as the mental separation between law enforcement and the general public (utilizing terms like "civilian" incorrectly to differentiate between law enforcement and non-law enforcement... when in fact both groups are civilians) and the widespread use of no-knock warrants which increase the chance of acquiring evidence at the risk of lives of occupants indicate a mindset where use of force is becoming more acceptable.

These sorts of things are usually self-correcting. Eventually you will see more laws like the one recently passed in Indiana... or not. They aren't ALWAYS self-correcting.

When the picture in your post was taken private individuals owned Thompson and other automatic weapons without license or regulation and bought them and other guns via mail order. A police officer patrolling with a Thompson was no big deal if I have one oin my closet as well. Today that is not the case, especially in states like CA, so the police possession of military arms creates a much greater disparity of force between them and those whom they serve, and who supposedly wield the sovereign power of the state and the nation, and serves as an indication or who really serves who.

[Scuba Steve33]

Why would a police force (or anyone) need full auto carbines or rifles? Three round burst is MUCH more effective than full auto. A rifle is just not useful when being fired in fully automatic. Even 3 round burst is hard to control with rapid firing. It's just not practical. I only fired my M4 on burst in Afghanistan twice and those were situations where we were ****ed.

[Cpl. Haas]

I can't speak for all departments with Title II firearms... but for the dept. I used to work for, it was actually cheaper to buy a batch of select-fire Hk firearms w/suppressors as a package than it would've been to buy their semi-auto counterparts without suppressors.

[Ubermcoupe]

San Jose MERGE, Campbell SWAT, Santa Clara PD SRT, Sunnyvale Department of Public Safety SWAT, etc. *all* have select fire weapons; AR types and MP-5s exclusively as far as I know. Though back in the 90's Campbell PD's Chief had an SBR Steyr AUG for his on-duty use that converted to lefty use, but if I recall that was semi-auto only.

[Notorious]

Tank soldier. Look up civilian in the Merriam-Webster dictionary. Police is not civilian.

In any event, police tactics are generally reactionary in that the cops adapt and update their tactics after their most recent engagement. Tactics changed after the SLA shootout, North Hollywood, Columbine, etc.

If the tactics have become more aggressive, there is a reason behind it besides the cops wanting to play Cortez the Conqueror and kill civilians.

[tacticalcity]

Why would a police force (or anyone) need full auto carbines or rifles? Three round burst is MUCH more effective than full auto. A rifle is just not useful when being fired in fully automatic. Even 3 round burst is hard to control with rapid firing. It's just not practical. I only fired my M4 on burst in Afghanistan twice and those were situations where we were ****ed.

Where as when I was in the military my GAU-5/A was infact full auto and you just trained to use trigger control to control the number of rounds you fired at any given time.

People who have not trained with full-auto weapons tend to think of it in extremes. As if you pull the trigger and no matter what you do it is going to empty the magazine. That isn't so. With training you learn to control exactly how many rounds fire while on full auto. You can fire just one, with ease, while the rifle is set on full auto if you are trained properly. You get to the point where the range officer calls out a number, and using trigger control that is how many rounds you fire. No less, no more. It's actually not hard.

So my question would be why not? SWAT team members are not poorly trained mechanics that will only shoot to qualify once a year and probably never actually be issued a rifle in their entire career...not saying that is you as it clearly is not...but that was the reason the military switch to burst in the first place (and only for general issue weapons as specialized units can still get full auto if they want them). The untrained guys were just spraying and praying and it raised concerns. SWAT guys will use the weapon correctly.

As for the OPs question, yes I have seen full-auto SBRs in the hands of SWAT officers. They are not personal weapons but department owned, and that department jumped through the necessary hoops to get them. Discussions with these officers always result in them lamenting impending retirement, because they really enjoy their full-auto SBRs and semi-auto just isn't the same (made even worse now that even retired officers are required to make their rifles SB23 compliant in addition to the NFA requirements they now have to meet).

[Ken Woodford]

Why would there be a thompson in a police armory? I am assuming confiscated guns would be stored somewhere else so the only reason I could think of as to why it would be there is if its been there since the 40's... sorry for threadjacking

I don't know if it was in fact confiscated.

I do know that the 92F was coverted by one of the armorers and I think it's funny you asked about the Thompson and not the full auto pistol!!! LOL

I do know we had several different types of full auto weapons and I don't know why the kept them or have them. I was never on the training staff.