Two questions for LEOs

[undercow16969]

I have been hearing about many instances where "usually law abiding" citizens have been arrested because the proper procedures were not taken when transporting a fire arm. Some have been military and many more are just everyday people.

First question: Why do some officers feel that a citizen needs to be arrested and taken into custody for a small infraction when they do not harm anyone and are overall good people?

Reason I am asking is because I have a military friend that was arrested because he had an empty weapon sandwiched in the seat of his car with the full (CA legal) magazine in the glovebox. I understand "just doing my job" and I understand "it's the law" also...but why couldn't the officer inform and correct especially since he was compliant, friendly and so on instead of getting him kicked out of the military?

The other question is for me

I frequently travel to Las Vegas and in that state I can carry concealed. I usually put my handgun in the factory box but I do not have a lock for it so I disassemble it and that makes it gun parts...so not a fire arm right? The fully loaded magazine is in the small pocket in my clothes bag while the gun parts are in the unlocked case in the larger compartment (same bag) in the trunk of the car.

Am I correct/legal?

[Ken Woodford]

I empathize with what you are saying and I can only comment on my experience...no as law enforcement as a whole.

One thing here in cali is that when any mayor, state elected official gets on air talking about gun control what do you see behind them...the chief or the county Sheriff. What is the patrol officer suppose to think? He?She thinks that enforcement is what my boss wants. In your case there was a infraction and you named it that actually can be a felony or misdemeanor...both arrestable offenses. Are they kept or just booked and released and with over crowding more and like B&R. Not knowing the law is not an excuse. Lane splitting on a motorcyle is lega here in Cali. Most driver don't know that is legal. It legal in I think 3 other states. So because it is legal here and I go to florida where it isn't legal and lane split should I not get a ticket? That is just a very minor traffic infraction...not arrestable.


I don't know Nevada law but as soon as you cross into Cali you need to follow Cali law. There may be exceptions that I don't know so please don't take that as a line in the sand. LOL

What do cops die from in the line of duty? Firearms, followed by car accidents. The CHP and many other depts teach to approach your car on the pasenger side to stay out of the traffic side. So now the Officer finds a gun in the car...who is this guy? What's his background? Why is he not following the law on transporting? Is he going to or coming from a crime? None of this we know at that moment of contact. So we should take the persons word..."Officer I am a law abiding citizen" "Oh o.k. I didn't know so your free to go". Not gonna happen.

I know this isn't what you probably wanted to read but it is at least an insight into some LEO thinking. After all the bottom line is to go home after the shift.

[undercow16969]

I empathize with what you are saying and I can only comment on my experience...no as law enforcement as a whole.

One thing here in cali is that when any mayor, state elected official gets on air talking about gun control what do you see behind them...the chief or the county Sheriff. What is the patrol officer suppose to think? He?She thinks that enforcement is what my boss wants. In your case there was a infraction and you named it that actually can be a felony or misdemeanor...both arrestable offenses. Are they kept or just booked and released and with over crowding more and like B&R. Not knowing the law is not an excuse. Lane splitting on a motorcyle is lega here in Cali. Most driver don't know that is legal. It legal in I think 3 other states. So because it is legal here and I go to florida where it isn't legal and lane split should I not get a ticket? That is just a very minor traffic infraction...not arrestable.


I don't know Nevada law but as soon as you cross into Cali you need to follow Cali law. There may be exceptions that I don't know so please don't take that as a line in the sand. LOL

What do cops die from in the line of duty? Firearms, followed by car accidents. The CHP and many other depts teach to approach your car on the pasenger side to stay out of the traffic side. So now the Officer finds a gun in the car...who is this guy? What's his background? Why is he not following the law on transporting? Is he going to or coming from a crime? None of this we know at that moment of contact. So we should take the persons word..."Officer I am a law abiding citizen" "Oh o.k. I didn't know so your free to go". Not gonna happen.

I know this isn't what you probably wanted to read but it is at least an insight into some LEO thinking. After all the bottom line is to go home after the shift.

I can understand. I did forget to leave out the part that there were suitcases and his family in the car with him. He was booked and put in the general population for three days even after the 1st Sgt came. I am not going to name any counties or anything but they would not release him due to the type of charge. The thing I don't understand about it is he had no priors one traffic ticket and even though I wasn't there I can assume nothing suspicious bawsed on our relationship and this all happened in a gas station parking lot. He told me after his release that the officers said "hes lucky he wasnt in a school zone or we would have hit him with that one too"...I don't know...maybe its because I am not an officer but If I were I would think that I would have used a little more common sense and let him know what was right instead of ruining a career of a military member.

Slightly irritated is all.

[LtJim]

30+ yrs L.A. Co. Recently Retired LEO here. I'll keep it quite simple. Enforcing firearms laws for me and my subordinates were very simple. While we have "discretion" when enforcing the law, (which I seemed to use about 80% of the time on Vehicle Code viol's), when dealing with gun violations, those are taken very seriously! No "kumbahya", no oops, no I' m sorry. To me it was a decision that the individual made himself. As far as I was concerned, any excuse he had to offer, would just make me want to mimic "Bill Engvall - Here's your sign!". To violate gun laws nowadays one has to not care or be carrying one of Bill's signs.

Guess I was just old school on the streets and with my men. Good to be retired and not dealing with whiney spoon fed, momma's kids, with 3rd cousins who are lawyers and want my badge # so they can sue me for enforcing the law and arresting them!

[undercow16969]

hey LtJim welcome to calguns

I can definately see how the momma's kids cousins lawyers stuff can get old and I have a friend that pulls that card all the time and even I find it annoying...never understood how one could potentially sue an officer for enforcing the law either.

If its not too much to ask, what do you think about my second question?

[RickD427]

I have been hearing about many instances where "usually law abiding" citizens have been arrested because the proper procedures were not taken when transporting a fire arm. Some have been military and many more are just everyday people.

First question: Why do some officers feel that a citizen needs to be arrested and taken into custody for a small infraction when they do not harm anyone and are overall good people?

Reason I am asking is because I have a military friend that was arrested because he had an empty weapon sandwiched in the seat of his car with the full (CA legal) magazine in the glovebox. I understand "just doing my job" and I understand "it's the law" also...but why couldn't the officer inform and correct especially since he was compliant, friendly and so on instead of getting him kicked out of the military?

The other question is for me

I frequently travel to Las Vegas and in that state I can carry concealed. I usually put my handgun in the factory box but I do not have a lock for it so I disassemble it and that makes it gun parts...so not a fire arm right? The fully loaded magazine is in the small pocket in my clothes bag while the gun parts are in the unlocked case in the larger compartment (same bag) in the trunk of the car.

Am I correct/legal?

Sir,

You do know that you’re really opening Pandora’s Box here? But you’re asking a fair question, here’s my two cents.

Nearly every law enforcement agency employs some form of reactive based strategy to combat crime. We like to create fancy words to describe the process (Intelligence-led policing, community based policing, COMSTAT, etc) and we like to develop numerical measurement. It’s easy to compare numbers. It’s a little more difficult to figure out what those numbers really mean.

There’s an old saying that “What you count counts”. Nearly every large LE agency in the state has problems caused by criminals with guns. You and I may see the criminal as the enforcement target. Others see the gun as the enforcement target. We at least have common ground that arresting criminals with guns supports our enforcement strategy.

I once worked a station in south-central L.A. county. We had several performance metrics, but the only two that really mattered were Felony Arrests and Weapons Arrests. Remember – What you count counts. What happened is that nearly every act of petty shoplifting became a burglary (California law provides that any person entering a structure with the intent to commit a theft is guilty of burglary.) All the arresting officer has to do is show probable cause the suspect planned on stealing when he walked in the door (he didn’t have money, he’s got priors for the same thing, etc). If two juveniles bought (or stole) a can of spray paint and were on their way to graffiti up a wall, then both would go to jail for a felony (that’s two felony arrest stats)(California law, at the time, provided that conspiracy to commit a misdemeanor, or an infraction, was a felony). None of this is what the law really was intended to do. It’s what the system ultimately produced.

It also works the other way. A newly appointed detective commander in one of the large east bay cities was under tremendous pressure to get the city’s burglary rate down. Nothing else really mattered. He reviewed the California law on burglary and issued a policy that required officers to show the “intent” element through an admission from the suspect (because intent was a state of mind of the suspect, he required that it be documented from the suspect). The policy was a real work of art. Of course the burglary rate plummeted (because the intent could not easily be documented.) At the same time, nearly every burglary in the city was solved by an arrest (how else could officers get the admission?). Of course “thefts” went up correspondingly, but the city was more concerned with “burgs” than with “thefts”. The new detective commander was a hero.

What you count counts.

As to your military buddy, under the circumstances you’ve described, he would be carrying a concealed firearm in a vehicle. That’s a misdemeanor if the weapon is registered to him. It’s a felony if the weapon is not registered to him. Apply the above, coupled with the fact the LEO is not likely to possess a lot of background information on your buddy to make a fully balanced evaluation of his criminal propensity. You can see what’s likely to occur.

What you count counts.

As to your transportation of the broken down firearm, you do have a basis to argue that “it’s just parts”.
But that argument isn’t conclusive. The filing D.A. and Judge could equally well argue the receiver is treated as a firearm and so long as the receiver is present, the crime is complete. If you have all of the other parts, the counter-argument is even stronger (“he could have easily assembled a functional firearm in minutes’). If the weapon is locked in the trunk, you're OK. If you have it in an unlocked container in passenger compartment, the rest is the same as above. If the weapon is registered to you – misdemeanor. If the weapon isn’t registered to you – felony.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news. But you did ask a very good question and I kinda got on a roll.

[undercow16969]

I appreciate the response and I found it actually quite enjoyable to read. Now I will feel guilty not replying with something beneficial.

As for my friend we will find out what will happen soon as for his military career it is in fact over (pending what happens in civilian court). He was coming back from leave to go on deployment and because the county would not release him he is being charged with AWOL and missing a movement which is almost like abandonment all over what will hopefully be a misdemeanor after all is said and done. Dishonorable discharge could happen so that is really where my grief comes in.

ok so I need to get a lock for the case...hopefully my LTC will come through soon so that will not be a problem anymore.

This has been enlightening and very much appreciated.

[RickD427]

I appreciate the response and I found it actually quite enjoyable to read. Now I will feel guilty not replying with something beneficial.

As for my friend we will find out what will happen soon as for his military career it is in fact over (pending what happens in civilian court). He was coming back from leave to go on deployment and because the county would not release him he is being charged with AWOL and missing a movement which is almost like abandonment all over what will hopefully be a misdemeanor after all is said and done. Dishonorable discharge could happen so that is really where my grief comes in.

ok so I need to get a lock for the case...hopefully my LTC will come through soon so that will not be a problem anymore.

This has been enlightening and very much appreciated.

I hope that your buddy has the involvement of his Command Master Chief/Command Sergeant Major. Their dialogue with the D.A.'s office can sometimes be helpful. If your buddy was arrested for the felony violation, California law has a process for selected violations (including CCW) that allows the D.A. to drop the charge to a misdemeanor (refer to Penal Code section 17(b)). Once that is done, the offense is misdemeanor for all purposes. That's certainly helpful to his career. It also opens the door for him to be released on a promise to appear (refer to Penal Code section 853.6).

[Ron-Solo]

LtJim, welcome to CalGuns AND retirement. God Bless LACERA.

[Librarian]

RickD427 has it correct - a disassembled firearm is still a firearm.

See also http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/De..._a_firearm/gun

[CalCop]

I frequently travel to Las Vegas and in that state I can carry concealed. I usually put my handgun in the factory box but I do not have a lock for it so I disassemble it and that makes it gun parts...so not a fire arm right? The fully loaded magazine is in the small pocket in my clothes bag while the gun parts are in the unlocked case in the larger compartment (same bag) in the trunk of the car.

Am I correct/legal?

As long as it is in the locked trunk, you don't need a lock on the case, and you don't even need to disassemble the gun.

[undercow16969]

LtJim, welcome to CalGuns AND retirement. God Bless LACERA.

Ahh yes forgive me on the retirement part congrats.

QUOTE=RickD427;8720686]I hope that your buddy has the involvement of his Command Master Chief/Command Sergeant Major. Their dialogue with the D.A.'s office can sometimes be helpful. If your buddy was arrested for the felony violation, California law has a process for selected violations (including CCW) that allows the D.A. to drop the charge to a misdemeanor (refer to Penal Code section 17(b)). Once that is done, the offense is misdemeanor for all purposes. That's certainly helpful to his career. It also opens the door for him to be released on a promise to appear (refer to Penal Code section 853.6).[/QUOTE]

As far as I know they have done exactly this..well his civilian attourney anyway. military attourneys were of no help at all other than to see if they can get the articles dropped/reduced which will still affect his career but hopefully he will not be kicked out but that part isn't looking too good right now because of the missed movement.

Thank you

[LtJim]

Here is the answer to your 2nd question. First, ya have to realize that we Lt.'s are very simple minded people who tend to follow the "k.i.s.s." principle.

Between here and Las Vegas???? Carrying CCW w/o proper authority?? Simple answer --- Stop at Primm and put it in your trunk !
It allows you to eliminate potential legal probs - get chow - go to the head (after 50 you never miss an opportunity!)

[undercow16969]

As long as it is in the locked trunk, you don't need a lock on the case, and you don't even need to disassemble the gun.

RickD427 has it correct - a disassembled firearm is still a firearm.

See also http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/De..._a_firearm/gun

Thanks again everyone.

[undercow16969]

Here is the answer to your 2nd question. First, ya have to realize that we Lt.'s are very simple minded people who tend to follow the "k.i.s.s." principle.

Between here and Las Vegas???? Carrying CCW w/o proper authority?? Simple answer --- Stop at Primm and put it in your trunk !

oh no Lt I'm not that stupid. I stop in primm and strap up going to LV comming back I do the same but putting it away.