High capacity mags?

[Cokebottle]

ok, what is required when replacing existing hi-cap mags? do i have to store the worn parts for future evedence if required?

That is entirely up to you, but the burden of proof is on the state.
There is no legal requirement to keep the original parts.

can i replace a glock 17 hi cap with a glock 22?
9mm to .40?
hk usp for a hk p30?

The new magazine must remain functional in the original weapon.
It may be modified to work in a different gun, so long as it still works properly in the original.

Here is the actual letter from the DOJ regarding rebuild kits:

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/DOJ-large-cap-magazines-2005-11-10.pdf

Keep in mind that this letter was from Alison, and there is a bit of FUD in there, as well as a few cop-out answers.

[Oceanbob]

A Police officer has to work from

the Penal Code.

2 guys in a Squad Car get a call from Dispatch that a Range Officer at the local shooting range has reported a man with a Hi Capacity Magazine in his GLOCK 20.

The 2 Policemen show up at the RANGE and notice the man shooting on lane 4 with his GLOCK 20. They count the bullets and sure enough, the man shoots 15 times out of one magazine.

They decide to 'question' the man. As the man packs up and moves out of the firing line, he is approached by the 2 Police officers.

Officer one: "Hello, I noticed you were shooting 15 times out of ONE magazine...."

Cal Gunner: "Yes officer, I find it easier on my Thumb to load up several magazines when I shoot target".

Officer two: "Are you aware that California has a Ban on magazines over 10 rounds"?

Cal Gunner: "Why yes officer, I heard about that"

Officer one: "But you were shooting a 15 round magazine thru your pistol, I observed it myself".

Cal Gunner: "Officer, I OWN and POSSESS these magazines, do you have a problem with that"?

Officer two: "Do you know you can be arrested for having Hi cap magazines in your gun"?

Cal Gunner: "Officer, I OWN and POSSESS these magazines, is that against the Law"?

Officer one to Officer two: "Excuse us a minute"

(side stepping away; Officer one whispers to Officer two...."what IS the Penal Code that prohibits owning/possessing hi caps again Larry..?".....I don't remember Joe.....let's call the Sargent for advice; If we arrest this Cal Gunner we have to have Probable Cause and SITE the PENAL CODE in our Report or the Department may get Sued for False Arrest...and certainly the
Assistance District Attorney would THROW THE CASE OUT....Larry calls the Sargent..the Sargent says LET IT GO.)

Officer one steps up to our Cal Gunner....

Cal Gunner: "Officer, am I free to go now..?..."

Officer one: "Yes, thank you...you're free to go".

END OF STORY

I own and possess Hi Cap magazines.

[TheKlawMan]

Only if you assembled or imported.
Under PC12020(a)(2), purchase or other "reception" is not illegal.

12020(b)(24) exemption.... "Repair or Modification"
It's right there in the law.

Show me in the PC where possession is illegal.

For someone to be arrested and charged with a crime, there must be a specific PC section used.
What PC section would be used to charge someone with illegal possession of an LCM?

Been waiting for this answer from you for 2 months.

Possession is legal.
The method of acquisition MAY have been illegal.
The only crimes that a person in possession could be charged with would be importation or manufacture, and the state would have to provide evidence of such activity.

Purchase or receipt as a gift are not illegal. The state would need to find the person that he got them from in order to file primary charges or they wouldn't even be able to file conspiracy charges against him (and conspiracy charges would be extremely unlikely in a "wobbler" offense and completely unlikely in misdemeanor charges).

I don't need to because I have never encouraged any such activity.

I have always been quite clear on this forum that we need to remain within the law, regardless of how difficult it would be for the state to prove it's case.
The mods are also on top of things and if someone does cross that line recommending illegal activity, or even hinting "read between the lines", the mods will delete the posts immediately. This forum is under a microscope and recommendation of illegal activity is not tolerated here.

The fact that my posts have not been edited/deleted should tell you something.

That is a partial win... or "not a complete fail".
Bill said that he was "overly aggressive," not that he was wrong, and the situation is being reviewed. Bill and Gene have still not given official opinions on the matter... yet you immediately jumped on Bill's comment and spread your "I'm right" on the other threads where you were taking a beating.


So once again....

Show me in the California PC, or even in the current USC, where mere possession of high caps is illegal as you claim.

You misleadingly say that "Under PC12020(a)(2), purchase or other "reception" is not illegal" when the truth is that section does not say if it is legal or illegal.

You are correct that exemption provided by 12020(b)(24) includes giving the mag to a gusnmith for Modification. I hadn't checked for that, since the OP clearly stated they are not going to modify his mag but give him a neew one.

Once again, you confuse what is the law with what can be proven. It may be difficult to prove, but the situation the OP described can be proven by obtaining ProMag's records. As for the rest, I believe ProMag would be charged under 12020(a)(2) with giving a LCM to the OP and the OP might then be charged with aiding and abetting or conspiracy. Once again, you confuse what is the law with what can be proven.

I think the OP is taking a significant risk should he accept a replacement mag from ProMag. He would do better to pay a gunsmith to repair it or contact promag and explin his concern and ask if they cannot repair his mag. Arguably, if one part of the mag that is returned to him came from the broken magazine then no law is broken. But he should first check with competent counsel.

[Cokebottle]

You misleadingly say that "Under PC12020(a)(2), purchase or other "reception" is not illegal" when the truth is that section does not say if it is legal or illegal.

The law dictates what is illegal.
It is silent on what is legal unless it is an exemption to something otherwise illegal.

The CVC states that it is illegal to use a cellphone while driving a vehicle.
Exemptions are: with a hands-free device, police, tow truck drivers, etc....

The CVC does not state that it is legal or illegal to drink a Pepsi while you drive.

If the PC is silent, it is presumed to be legal until case law indicates otherwise.

[kemasa]

The new magazine must remain functional in the original weapon.
It may be modified to work in a different gun, so long as it still works properly in the original.

Where does it say that? The link to the letter does not state that, in fact it seems to indicate that there is no restriction as long as one part of the original remains (reading a bit between the lines as it only becomes an issue if ALL of the parts are replaced Q6).

With respect to the original question, Q6 seems to indicate a complete replacement is an issue.

BTW, Q3, Q4 and Q9 seem to be conflicting with respect to the answers. They say that importing all the parts are NOT a problem, then they say that it could be depending on your intent, then it could be depending on what a prosecutor believes.

With respect to possession, if someone were to steal money from you (possession of money is not illegal), admit to stealing the money, they would illegally possess the money and it would be taken from them. Or do you think that they should be able to keep the money, regardless of how they got it?

[Notorious]

the Penal Code.

2 guys in a Squad Car get a call from Dispatch that a Range Officer at the local shooting range has reported a man with a Hi Capacity Magazine in his GLOCK 20.

The 2 Policemen show up at the RANGE and notice the man shooting on lane 4 with his GLOCK 20. They count the bullets and sure enough, the man shoots 15 times out of one magazine.

They decide to 'question' the man. As the man packs up and moves out of the firing line, he is approached by the 2 Police officers.

Officer one: "Hello, I noticed you were shooting 15 times out of ONE magazine...."

Cal Gunner: "Yes officer, I find it easier on my Thumb to load up several magazines when I shoot target".

Officer two: "Are you aware that California has a Ban on magazines over 10 rounds"?

Cal Gunner: "Why yes officer, I heard about that"

Officer one: "But you were shooting a 15 round magazine thru your pistol, I observed it myself".

Cal Gunner: "Officer, I OWN and POSSESS these magazines, do you have a problem with that"?

Officer two: "Do you know you can be arrested for having Hi cap magazines in your gun"?

Cal Gunner: "Officer, I OWN and POSSESS these magazines, is that against the Law"?

Officer one to Officer two: "Excuse us a minute"

(side stepping away; Officer one whispers to Officer two...."what IS the Penal Code that prohibits owning/possessing hi caps again Larry..?".....I don't remember Joe.....let's call the Sargent for advice; If we arrest this Cal Gunner we have to have Probable Cause and SITE the PENAL CODE in our Report or the Department may get Sued for False Arrest...and certainly the
Assistance District Attorney would THROW THE CASE OUT....Larry calls the Sargent..the Sargent says LET IT GO.)

Officer one steps up to our Cal Gunner....

Cal Gunner: "Officer, am I free to go now..?..."

Officer one: "Yes, thank you...you're free to go".

END OF STORY

I own and possess Hi Cap magazines.

In your example, you would be correct. Nice frame. Where did you get the FDE frame?

[Oceanbob]

Beat Cops can't prove a conspiracy.

You misleadingly say that "Under PC12020(a)(2), purchase or other "reception" is not illegal" when the truth is that section does not say if it is legal or illegal.

You are correct that exemption provided by 12020(b)(24) includes giving the mag to a gusnmith for Modification. I hadn't checked for that, since the OP clearly stated they are not going to modify his mag but give him a neew one.

Once again, you confuse what is the law with what can be proven. It may be difficult to prove, but the situation the OP described can be proven by obtaining ProMag's records. As for the rest, I believe ProMag would be charged under 12020(a)(2) with giving a LCM to the OP and the OP might then be charged with aiding and abetting or conspiracy. Once again, you confuse what is the law with what can be proven.

I think the OP is taking a significant risk should he accept a replacement mag from ProMag. He would do better to pay a gunsmith to repair it or contact promag and explin his concern and ask if they cannot repair his mag. Arguably, if one part of the mag that is returned to him came from the broken magazine then no law is broken. But he should first check with competent counsel.

They can only 'arrest' when they PERSONALLY OBSERVE a violation of the PENAL CODE.

They can't 'go back in time and check your records on how many years you've had that magazine'.

Neither can they arrest you on 'SPECULATION' . And no, they cannot read your mind.

Since owning and possessing magazines of ANY SIZE is NOT illegal in Californistan......what reason would they have to even get you downtown for questioning..?...

The answer:

None

(the ONLY way you would get arrested on SPECULATION is if your OPEN YOUR BIG MOUTH.)

(not saying you have a big mouth, just saying most people talk themselves into trouble. Keep it shut. Don't talk to police and THEY WILL HAVE NO CASE)

How many people have been arrested and prosecuted in the last 10 years since the law went into affect? (primary not add on charges for AK 47 wielding gang bangers)

Answer:

None.

How many Range Officers call the police?

None

How many times does the California Department of Justice officers walk thru shooting ranges..and questioning people?

None.

Who gives a Krap about your magazines?

Nobody.

PS: Don't talk to police....ever.

[Cokebottle]

Where does it say that? The link to the letter does not state that,

Everything I've heard from "The Right People"

in fact it seems to indicate that there is no restriction as long as one part of the original remains (reading a bit between the lines as it only becomes an issue if ALL of the parts are replaced Q6).

With respect to the original question, Q6 seems to indicate a complete replacement is an issue.

BTW, Q3, Q4 and Q9 seem to be conflicting with respect to the answers. They say that importing all the parts are NOT a problem, then they say that it could be depending on your intent, then it could be depending on what a prosecutor believes.

That's why I added the comment about the source of the letter.

Even a fud-slinger like Gene's favorite DOJ employee was relatively "forgiving"... then as the letter went on, she moved into covering-her-butt mode, shifting responsibility to the 58 DAs.


Speaking of Gene... I just noticed that he's made a new post in the thread discussing "his package"

This whole issue will be moot very soon

[kemasa]

Officer two: "Are you aware that California has a Ban on magazines over 10 rounds"?

Cal Gunner: "Why yes officer, I heard about that"

The proper response is that there is no ban on magazines, only limitations on the purchase, loan and importation of magazines with a capacity over 10 rounds.

I had to explain that to a LAPD Lt.

So, who does not understand that while possession of a high capacity magazine is not illegal, you can illegally possess a high capacity magazine?

[TheKlawMan]

As with everything else upon which the Penal Code is silent, possession of large-capacity magazines is not illegal; there is no section under which a non-prohibited person might be charged for illegal possession of a large-capacity magazine.
.

Then why did cokebottle just as much as admit that while it may be difficult to prove, and it is unlikely that charges would be brought, that the OP could be charged with aiding and abetting or conspiracy.?

You msy eidh to go bacn and see where origingally I didn't even tell the OP that possession was illebal, but I suggested he speak with an attorney.

This reminds me of the poor woman on one of the threads who's husband was charged with a weapons violation as a result of a search warrant based on a corrupt affidavit. She ande her husband were acquitted or the charges dropped, I am not sure which, but he lost his job and I believe spent 3 months as a guest of the state. If what she says is true I hope they sue the heck out of the officer that falsified the affidavit. As is the guy can't even get his job back as a correctional officer.

This is competely different. Based on what the OP says it comes down to whether or not he has liability (not for mere possession but accepting the magazine when it is given to him. If CalGuns is looking for a test case, there you go, but tell the poor Joe what he might lose even if he beats the charges and tell him if you are going to supply hime with legal counsel at your expense.

[CSACANNONEER]

You misleadingly say that "Under PC12020(a)(2), purchase or other "reception" is not illegal" when the truth is that section does not say if it is legal or illegal.

As Cokebottle said, in general, laws do not tell you what is legal just what is illegal. There is no law making it legal to breath or wipre you bottom in Ca. So, are these acts legal or illegal?

[kemasa]

Everything I've heard from "The Right People"

Ok, let me be a bit more clear, where does it say that in the California Penal Code?

BTW, in case some people have not figured it out yet, the police can and do arrest people and take things and force the person to prove that nothing was done wrong, causing the person to spend time and money to get it corrected, most likely NOT getting all the money it cost you to get your items back. Spend some time in traffic court to see some examples of guilty until proven guilty.

[Oceanbob]

Glock used to make

In your example, you would be correct. Nice frame. Where did you get the FDE frame?

Frames like that. It was called OD (olive drab).

They stopped production on OD frames last year.

I bought a bunch of them. (I got tired of BLACK frames)

OD colors looks like dark earth...depends on the lighting.

[TheKlawMan]

[QUOTE=Cokebottle;5950473]
Here is the actual letter from the DOJ regarding rebuild kits:

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/DOJ-large-cap-magazines-2005-11-10.pdf

QUOTE]

Look at question and answer 7. The letter you had all this time seems to agree with my postion, which is that replacement of a mag is illegal, whereas repair is legal.

Wouldn't it have been nice of you to warn the OP of the contents of that letter, even if you disagreed, before telling him that no laws were being broken if the OP got a replacement magazine from ProMag.

[kemasa]

Just for fun and since possession of money is not illegal, trying taking $50k and going to the airport and buying a ticket to the "wrong" location in cash and/or find a nice DEA agent and see what happens to your money. Did you know that they can "arrest" your money and it does not have any rights?

http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/12/1296.asp

Federal Appeals Court: Driving With Money is a Crime
Eighth Circuit Appeals Court ruling says police may seize cash from motorists even in the absence of any evidence that a crime has been committed.
...
In the case entitled, "United States of America v. $124,700 in U.S. Currency,"

Notice the name of the case?