OFF DUTY

[oddjob]

I remember an armed robbery at a local grocery store where the suspects started in the back of the store. They (two of them) got the manager and grabbed the surveillance tapes, went to the front and got money out of the registers and safe. Both suspects ran out and jumped into a car. A third who was standing at the registers, but didn't actively participate walked outside and got into the same car. All left the area.

There was an off-duty officer in the store, but he didn't hear or see a thing (its a big grocery store). Its a good thing he didn't take action. He never would have seen the third suspect. The witnesses didn't know till a lone witness mentioned it. Needless to say all witnesses were concentrating on the suspects they could see and not pay attention to anything else.

As I understand it they did end up shooting an on duty patrol officer during another robbery elsewhere. Last I heard they fled to Mexico.

I know of a few off duty shootings and its been because the officer themselves were the victims. How many robbery calls at a store do the cops rush right in? None. There is a reason for that. Now that I'm retired I don't have any peace officer powers. I will be a good witness (unless my glasses fall off).

In the words of Dirty Harry..."Man has got to know his limitations." Be a good witness.

[fullrearview]

I remember an armed robbery at a local grocery store where the suspects started in the back of the store. They (two of them) got the manager and grabbed the surveillance tapes, went to the front and got money out of the registers and safe. Both suspects ran out and jumped into a car. A third who was standing at the registers, but didn't actively participate walked outside and got into the same car. All left the area.

There was an off-duty officer in the store, but he didn't hear or see a thing (its a big grocery store). Its a good thing he didn't take action. He never would have seen the third suspect. The witnesses didn't know till a lone witness mentioned it. Needless to say all witnesses were concentrating on the suspects they could see and not pay attention to anything else.

As I understand it they did end up shooting an on duty patrol officer during another robbery elsewhere. Last I heard they fled to Mexico.

I know of a few off duty shootings and its been because the officer themselves were the victims. How many robbery calls at a store do the cops rush right in? None. There is a reason for that. Now that I'm retired I don't have any peace officer powers. I will be a good witness (unless my glasses fall off).

In the words of Dirty Harry..."Man has got to know his limitations." Be a good witness.

That's what I was saying... A sleeper is often there for that reason.

[Lrchops]

I don't quite understand here.... When it comes to the perks of being an LEO, like high caps, AW's and no CCW,you are on duty 24/7/365. When it comes to a crime committed in your presence when not on shift, you are not on duty. Seems to me you can't have it both ways. No need to carry off-shift if you are not obliged to protect the citizens and enforce the law. Simply leave the gun at home and be like the rest of us, unless you have a ccw.

This statement is above and beyond flawed and I will show you why!

When a cop is off duty he does not have any tactical advantage of having radio communications, back-up officers, body armor, K-9, air support, or any other tools necessary to safely perform his/her duties.

Cops carry guns off duty for extreme circumstances. Here is an example. I was a narcotics detective for many years. Imprisoned many gang members, drug dealers, cartel members, parolees, and violent offenders. Those people do not necessarily care for cops. When off duty if there is an unforseen encounter with one of these people, **** can go bad really fast, so I carry a gun to protect myself and my family, not to be a superhero and get involved in anything else.

Other than that, I am a good witness because I am a trained observer. Not only that, If I am off duty in plain clothes and a crime occurs in my presence,,,and I act and deploy my off duty gun,,, there may be another off duty cop who does not know me and pulls his gun and caps me thinking I am a bad guy. I have a beard and I am grunged out for my assignment, so I look like a tattooed freak dirtbag tweaker!! OR a uniformed cop arrives at the scene and see's me (a dirtbag looking guy with a gun) and he takes me out!

Cops are not in the business of pulling guns off duty. That is stupid Hollywood crap right there! THINK ABOUT IT! IF you have ever been in the military of in Law Enforcment you obviously undertstand tactics and survival. OBVIOUSLY the untrained lay person has not understanding of tactics or survival.

Have you ever attended a course presented by Lt. Col Grossman???? Have you ever had any realistic tactical training? Do you know anything about RED FLAGS?

I am sorry but your comments are ignorant! You expect since we can carry high cap mags and we are cops 24/7 that we should put our lives and the lives of others at risk by playing Superman or Lone Ranger? EDUCATE YOURSELF!!!!!! USE COMMON SENSE!!!!!!

[Notorious]

Years ago there was a local leo (I do not care to name him or his agency, some here will know of the incident and I hope they follow suit as it really isn't important to the main subject here.), who came to the defense of a disabled box boy who was being pistol whipped by a 211 suspect. The off duty leo, who was standing in line to check out, announced that he was a leo as he drew his gun and pointed it at the suspect.

Unknown to the officer, armed robber #2 was standing in line right behind him (officer) as a lookout. He didn't announce himself; he just shot the officer. The robbers got away and the officer died at the hospital.

It is a decision every off duty officer has to make and hopefully for all involved, the right one is made.

Yes, a highway section was named after him... IIRC.

There are tons of stories out there of Off-duty LE getting involved where the LE gets hurt/killed, or one where I heard of where the LE's daughter got caught up in the crossfire and killed while he got involved with her in tow.

Not worth it. I'm not getting involved without imminent grave danger or threat to life existed when I am not working... even when working, we have a lot of discretion to go charging in every situation... only when it's an active shooter does that dynamic change... and still, we wait for help and then go in, sooner than other situations, but still not charging in like bats out of hell.

[ap3572001]

I dont think my question was understood.....

As a veteran, I am VERY well aware that it is not a good idea to get involved in LE while off duty. There are MANY reasons for that.

My original question is :

When You are caught off duty in a situation like , and You use surprise to You advantage and open fire on armed robbers ( for example) , will it be SELF DEFENSE?

One more time (for some members), I AM AWARE OF ALL THE DANGERS OF THIS ACT. And I am NOT asking if this is a good thing to do .

[biochembruin]

It is not self defense. It may still be justifiable as defense of others from serious bodily injury or death. But you're not defending yourself. Your defending someone else.

Officers also have the option to use deadly force to prevent a crime where the suspects actions place persons in imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury. In any situation, windows of opportunity open and close rapidly. It would take hours to explain the specific legalities of how a justifiable shooting can occur in one instance, but be out of policy/illegal a mere instant later.

[ap3572001]

It is not self defense. It may still be justifiable as defense of others from serious bodily injury or death. But you're not defending yourself. Your defending someone else.

Officers also have the option to use deadly force to prevent a crime where the suspects actions place persons in imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury. In any situation, windows of opportunity open and close rapidly. It would take hours to explain the specific legalities of how a justifiable shooting can occur in one instance, but be out of policy/illegal a mere instant later.

OK. This is what I understand . If someone is directing a threat towards YOU , and You react . It is PURE self defense.

If someone walks into a store with a gun and orders everyone ( You too) on the floor , and You pick a right time and end the whole situation , I think it is ALSO self defense .You are as afraid for Your life as everyone else in the store. Right?

You don't have to wait till He points a gun at YOU. Right?

[donny douchebag]

Interesting stuff. I suppose it's irrelevant what cops in those situations did many years ago back when they also didn't have radios, vests, or back up...

[biochembruin]

OK. This is what I understand . If someone is directing a threat towards YOU , and You react . It is PURE self defense.

If someone walks into a store with a gun and orders everyone ( You too) on the floor , and You pick a right time and end the whole situation , I think it is ALSO self defense .You are as afraid for Your life as everyone else in the store. Right?

You don't have to wait till He points a gun at YOU. Right?

You don't have to wait until he points a gun at you or fires a round or says he's going to shoot you to claim self defense, or to claim defense of others. You could still claim self defense in your scenario where everyone is ordered to the ground, but it would really come down to if you feel your life is in imminent danger, and if you can articulate that fact.

If you are threatened and feel in fear of death or serious bodily injury, then it is self defense. If someone else is being threatened and you are in fear of death or serious bodily injury for that individual, then it is defense of others.

Example: SWAT team is in a tactical situation. Suspect points a gun at hostage. SWAT sniper shoots suspect from 100 yards away. Sniper can't justify his shooting by claiming self defense, but can by claiming defense of others.

[Anchors]

I can answer this! This happened to me back in September...

I was getting a soda at a chevron on my way into work, My Kel-Tec P11 in a pocket holster on my right side. All of a sudden three kids run into the store, one of whom was carrying a handgun. Two of them surrounded me and one ran to the back. The kid in front of me had a gun and pointed it at the clerk (to my right).

They then pointed the gun at me. I ended up losing my wallet and cell phone. I didn't give it to them but they took it. Had my hand on my gun but didn't pull it out. I figured I'd rather lose the $35 admin fee for my new CDL, $4 in cash, and my $200 phone than my life...

I like the way you think.
You use it when you absolutely have to, no need to escalate the situation for some punk kids who want your iPhone.

How do you claim SELF defense when you were not personally involved a defensive situation?

If I was not being threatened with deadly force or grave bodily injury directly nor am I being robbed than how is that I am deprived of anything?

Defense of another person while in fear for their life or their great bodily harm is also justifiable as per the PC.


I am not a cop, but I want to get a CCW when it gets fixed here. I CCW in AZ all the time.
You have to know that just because you have a gun it doesn't make you Bruce Willis in Die Hard.
You have to keep your head cool and think very carefully about every situation you place yourself in.
A guy shoots a store clerk and starts aiming at another customer? I would say you are clear to shoot him.
A kid wants your wallet at knife point?
He can have my AAA membership card and my soon to be canceled cards.
A kid jumps through my kitchen window at night with a knife?
He can have all the free ammo he can catch.

Situational awareness is the best defense.

[mikehtiger]

I like the way you think.
You use it when you absolutely have to, no need to escalate the situation for some punk kids who want your iPhone.



Defense of another person while in fear for their life or their great bodily harm is also justifiable as per the PC.


I am not a cop, but I want to get a CCW when it gets fixed here. I CCW in AZ all the time.
You have to know that just because you have a gun it doesn't make you Bruce Willis in Die Hard.
You have to keep your head cool and think very carefully about every situation you place yourself in.
A guy shoots a store clerk and starts aiming at another customer? I would say you are clear to shoot him.
A kid wants your wallet at knife point?
He can have my AAA membership card and my soon to be canceled cards.
A kid jumps through my kitchen window at night with a knife?
He can have all the free ammo he can catch.

Situational awareness is the best defense.

How did you know it was an iPhone....
Stalker.......

[Claymar]

I know you said "short and simple"... but, from above...

excerpted CA penal code:

197. Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in
any of the following cases:
1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a
felony...

This topic got me to thinking though:
If a situation happened here like the recent one in Tuscon, would it be kosher for someone that was legally carrying, to walk up behind the the shooter and put a round in the back of his head?

Not saying it's a good plan or something anyone should do.

Talking two totally differant situations. Sit #1 in a robbery where no violence has been committed and only threatened, to shoot first and ask later is going to result in a homicide charge beginning at voluntary manslaughter up, depending on the shooters explanation and, (trust this from an old homicide guy), the explanation can push it all the way to the top if not worded right.

In Sit# 2 (Arizona) where violence is in progress and or people have been killed or injured already, well thats a no brainer.

California dropped the felony apprehension rule a number of years ago, meaning you cannot shoot to apprehend a felon or fleeing felon unless you can articulate a direct and imminent threat to human life (and not property)

[ap3572001]

Talking two totally differant situations. Sit #1 in a robbery where no violence has been committed and only threatened, to shoot first and ask later is going to result in a homicide charge beginning at voluntary manslaughter up, depending on the shooters explanation and, (trust this from an old homicide guy), the explanation can push it all the way to the top if not worded right.

In Sit# 2 (Arizona) where violence is in progress and or people have been killed or injured already, well thats a no brainer.

California dropped the felony apprehension rule a number of years ago, meaning you cannot shoot to apprehend a felon or fleeing felon unless you can articulate a direct and imminent threat to human life (and not property)

So You are saying that shooting a gunman in the store after He points a gun at people ( including Yourself) can bring homicide charges against You ????

What do You think I will do when getting to a robbery In progress call , I see a guy with gun who is pointing a gun at the people in the store and orders them on the ground?

[1911su16b870]

This is a tremedously valuable link to show how quickly lethal force develops in an off duty situation. Also a good lesson to allways watch 360 (knowing tunnel vision can occur and to force your self to calm and look around).

Here's a pretty brutal video showing just how dengerous getting involved in an armed robbery can be while off-duty:

Video Link

Starting at the 1:13 mark...

- You see the off-duty officer (black jacket) notices the two 211 suspects approaching the business from the bottom of the video.

- Officer walks out into the street and starts to draw his weapon.

- Unseen 3rd suspect approaching from the top of the screen shoots the off-duty officer 8 times (According to the video description).

Had the off-duty officer taken no action and acted as a witness only, would there have still been shots fired? Maybe... maybe not.

[Notorious]

Talking two totally differant situations. Sit #1 in a robbery where no violence has been committed and only threatened...

Even a robbery where violence occurred might not justify deadly force. A guy punches you and takes your phone out of your hand does not warrant a deadly force response no matter how much we would like to think otherwise.