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How does LEOSA define firearm

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  • 003
    Veteran Member
    • Jul 2010
    • 3436

    How does LEOSA define firearm

    There are a number of interesting nuances to the LEOSA, particularly the newly passed version, S-1132. First of all nowhere in either the old (HR 218) or newly passed version is the term handgun, pistol or revolver used. They only discuss concealed “firearms”.

    Now according to the well established definitions in use today, “firearm” includes shoulder weapons as well as handguns. So, and this is just a question, can a Cop, either active or retired who is covered by LEOSA possess and or carry what under California law is an assault weapon under the authority of federal law, without having the permission letter from his Chief and registering it with Ca DOJ?

    Also, the language in S 1132 section 2 states: “includes ammunition not expressly prohibited by Federal law or subject to the provisions of the National Firearms act”. It is my understanding that this part was specifically put in as a result of the law in New Jersey that makes it a crime for all but on duty cops to have hollow point ammunition.

    Now since California law makes tracer and handgun armor piercing ammunition illegal to possess, does Federal Law supersede California law and can cops covered by LEOSA legally possess such ammunition.

    Please understand that both of the above mentioned issues are at least from my perspective academic only, as I have no personal interest in possessing any of the above items.

    Now, more food for thought

    Lastly, since the way the federal law is written it specifically lists the items not allowed/covered, ie machine guns, silencers, destructive devices, etc, is it a reasonable argument to make that if congress had wanted to include rifles and shotguns they would have listed them also, but since they are not listed as not allowed by the LEOSA they are in fact allowed.


    All comments, observations and critiques more than welcome.




    ‘(e) As used in this section--
    ‘(1) the term ‘firearm’--
    ‘(A) except as provided in this paragraph, has the same meaning as in section 921 of this title;
    ‘(B) includes ammunition not expressly prohibited by Federal law or subject to the provisions of the National Firearms Act; and
    ‘(C) does not include--
    ‘(i) any machinegun (as defined in section 5845 of the National Firearms Act);
    ‘(ii) any firearm silencer (as defined in section 921 of this title); and
    ‘(iii) any destructive device (as defined in section 921 of this title); and
    Last edited by 003; 01-04-2011, 11:22 AM.
  • #2
    alex00
    Senior Member
    • Apr 2006
    • 839

    In my personal reading of LEOSA I believe that qualified officers are exempt from assault weapon laws. The kicker to LEOSA is that the firearm must be concealed. The argument could also be made that there is no exemption for manufacturing an assault weapon in California under LEOSA. I belive it would be perfectly legal for me, under LEOSA, to drive to Nevada, unscrew the Radlock on my AR pistol, conceal it in my trunk/satchel/trenchcoat and drive back into California.

    I also believe that I could do the above procedure with any of my OLL rifles. I belive I would be covered by LEOSA if I ever used one of the LEOSA-AWs in an off-duty shooting. I do not believe I would be covered by LEOSA if I took one of those firearms to a range for target shooting, as it is no longer concealed.

    Clearly, a qualified officer from any other state could come into CA with a handgun or rifle that was an assault weapon, and be covered by LEOSA, as long as the firearm was not an MG, DD or silencer. It shouldn't be any different for a CA qualified officer.

    Comment

    • #3
      003
      Veteran Member
      • Jul 2010
      • 3436

      Alex00:

      "I also believe that I could do the above procedure with any of my OLL rifles. I belive I would be covered by LEOSA if I ever used one of the LEOSA-AWs in an off-duty shooting. I do not believe I would be covered by LEOSA if I took one of those firearms to a range for target shooting, as it is no longer concealed. "

      You make some interesting points. I do take issue with two areas, one the ability to go to a range and shoot. Since LEOSA requires a retired cop to qualify on an annual basis, it seems illogical to require one to qualify, but make it illegal to go to a range. Two, does LEOSA require the firearm be concealed, or does it simply allow LEOSA qualified officers to carry a concealed firearm.
      Last edited by 003; 01-04-2011, 11:19 AM.

      Comment

      • #4
        alex00
        Senior Member
        • Apr 2006
        • 839

        Originally posted by 003
        Alex00:

        "I also believe that I could do the above procedure with any of my OLL rifles. I belive I would be covered by LEOSA if I ever used one of the LEOSA-AWs in an off-duty shooting. I do not believe I would be covered by LEOSA if I took one of those firearms to a range for target shooting, as it is no longer concealed. "

        You make some interesting points. I do take issue with two areas, one the ability to go to a range and shoot. Since LEOSA requires a retired cop to qualify on an annual basis, it seems illogical to require one to qualify, but make it illegal to go to a range. Two, does LEOSA require the firearm be concealed, or does it simply allow LEOSA qualified officers to carry a concealed firearm.
        That's the sticky part about LEOSA. The way I read it, the gun has to be concealed, as that is all that is mentioned in the text of the law. The point of qualification is that LEOSA only says the QO must qualify with the 'type' of weapon carried, not the specific weapon. I take that to mean, rifle, shotgun or handgun. I would argue that one could qualify with any rifle, and carry any rifle. That's just my non lawyer opinion from reading the law. I however will not volunteer to be the test case. I have discussed this with my department's legal advisor, and he agreed with my opinion about handguns. He did not think it applied to rifles or shotguns.

        Comment

        • #5
          003
          Veteran Member
          • Jul 2010
          • 3436

          Interesting perspective. I would certainly like to get others here to comment and share their perspective and or opinions.

          Comment

          • #6
            Notorious
            Veteran Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 4695

            Well, if you think that you can conceal a rifle but not go to the range because it will be exposed at that point, how about when you whip it out for self-defense? It is exposed at that point too unless you plan on shooting a hole in your jacket as you fire from underneath the coat.

            I wouldn't want to be the test case on manufacturing a rifle AW in NV, concealing it, then driving back across the state lines to CA. You might be caught in that agriculture check point when they are looking for contraband bananas from Las Vegas.

            I agree that the language of firearms and the specific exemptions stated would indicate that rifles and shotguns can be carried concealed upon the person. The laws does not prohibit it by name and the term firearm is all encompassing of anything that uses an explosive propellant to eject a projectile, which includes a 5.56mm or 12 gauge.

            I haven't tried it outside my house but I did test how well my pistol gripped 12 gauge conceals under my trenchcoat... and I must say, it's uncomfortable but it does work. I don't see a problem legally... and while you might get some strange stares and WTF from an officer that stops you, as long as you ID yourself, I don't see another cop making a big deal about you concealing a shotgun or rifle on you if you can pull it off. I would be like... dude... you need a hobby... but I wouldn't call his station to talk to the WC or nothing.

            My favorite part of the rewrite is the 10 year service with separation instead of 15 years with retirement qualification. Takes the discretion out of the department that might want to jack with you upon retirement which I have seen.
            I like guns

            Comment

            • #7
              lrdchivalry
              Senior Member
              • Nov 2007
              • 1031

              Although I wouldn't want to be the test case and was out of state, there is the case of People v. Drew Peterson, Case No. 08 CF 1169 where the judge ruled that a qualified officer can possess/carry any weapon not prohibited by HR218. According to the judge, if it's not a machine gun, gun with a silencer, or a destructive device an HR218 qualified leo could possess a weapon illegal under California law.
              Last edited by lrdchivalry; 01-05-2011, 8:26 PM.
              Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.
              --Cesare, Marquis of Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishment"

              Comment

              • #8
                Notorious
                Veteran Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 4695

                Originally posted by lrdchivalry
                Although I wouldn't want to be the test case and was out of state, there is the case of People v. Drew Peterson, Case No. 08 CF 1169 where the judge ruled that a qualified officer can possess/carry any weapon not prohibited by HR218. According to the judge, if it's not a machine gun, gun with a silencer, or a destructive device an HR218 qualified leo could possess a weapon illegal under California law.
                Good luck to getting any CA courts or the 9th Circuit to recognize any of that...
                I like guns

                Comment

                • #9
                  alex00
                  Senior Member
                  • Apr 2006
                  • 839

                  Originally posted by Notorious
                  Good luck to getting any CA courts or the 9th Circuit to recognize any of that...
                  And therein lies the rub. I don't think any of us want to jeopardize our careers, freedom and 2A rights just to carry a gun around. There are plenty of legal guns, and I don't think any of us would willingly carry around an unregistered assault weapon to be the test case. It may come up if an officer, in otherwise good standing, gets in trouble for something he/she has in their safe. I don't wish that on anyone though.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Notorious
                    Veteran Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 4695

                    So, you're saying that if a LEO takes his BB'ed AR abomination to NV, he can then convert it back to factory configuration, conceal it under his jacket, and then walk back across the agricultural checkpoint to CA and it should be covered under LEOSA?
                    I like guns

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      alex00
                      Senior Member
                      • Apr 2006
                      • 839

                      Originally posted by Notorious
                      So, you're saying that if a LEO takes his BB'ed AR abomination to NV, he can then convert it back to factory configuration, conceal it under his jacket, and then walk back across the agricultural checkpoint to CA and it should be covered under LEOSA?
                      That's exactly what I am saying. If a qualified officer from out of state can bring in a firearm that is not a MG, Silencer, or DD under LEOSA, why can't a California officer?

                      Earlier I said we are exempt from importation under LEOSA, because any qualified officer from out of state would be 'importing', when they brought the gun in. I don't think we are exempt from manufacture, but it doesn't matter. It's not a crime to 'manufacture' an AW in Nevada. Aside from the tongue in cheek nature of my earlier post about a satchel or trechcoat, if you come back across state lines with a legally acquired AW concealed under LEOSA, I think you would be golden. Of course it's all supposition, who would knowingly be the test?
                      Last edited by alex00; 01-07-2011, 6:01 PM.

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        003
                        Veteran Member
                        • Jul 2010
                        • 3436

                        Alex:
                        While I would love to see Ca DOJ agree with your position on this issue, somehow, I suspect they may look at things differently. Let's hope this issue gets a serious look by one of the big unions, PORAC, ALADS, etc. The one out of State case gives me hope, but things are far from certain.

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          retired
                          Administrator
                          CGN Contributor - Lifetime
                          • Sep 2007
                          • 9407

                          Originally posted by 003
                          Alex:
                          While I would love to see Ca DOJ agree with your position on this issue, somehow, I suspect they may look at things differently. Let's hope this issue gets a serious look by one of the big unions, PORAC, ALADS, etc. The one out of State case gives me hope, but things are far from certain.
                          It has been a long, long time since I was a member of ALADS, but I doubt very much if they would fight for this. I joined PPOA and left ALADS when I promoted (PPOA is for LASD sgt./lts). I once called the then President of PPOA after I had retired (I'm an associate member now) and asked if the group would push for ccws to be shall issue in this state and he said no. He really wouldn't give me a reason.

                          If that assoc. won't fight for ccw for non leos, I doubt if ALADS or PPOA will do anything to promote what you have brought up here. I hope that I am wrong, but I would be surprised if I was.

                          ETA: As you know, there are some Calgunners who are LASD deputies. I would surmise some, if not all, belong to ALADS. I'd be interested in knowing what they think ALADS would do on this issue. Perhaps they may even ask them. Just a thought.
                          Last edited by retired; 01-07-2011, 10:39 PM.

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Notorious
                            Veteran Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 4695

                            Originally posted by alex00
                            That's exactly what I am saying. If a qualified officer from out of state can bring in a firearm that is not a MG, Silencer, or DD under LEOSA, why can't a California officer?

                            Earlier I said we are exempt from importation under LEOSA, because any qualified officer from out of state would be 'importing', when they brought the gun in. I don't think we are exempt from manufacture, but it doesn't matter. It's not a crime to 'manufacture' an AW in Nevada. Aside from the tongue in cheek nature of my earlier post about a satchel or trechcoat, if you come back across state lines with a legally acquired AW concealed under LEOSA, I think you would be golden. Of course it's all supposition, who would knowingly be the test?
                            I understand and fully support the reasoning. I just don't want to be the test case... but it makes sense to me!
                            I like guns

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              Patrick Aherne
                              Senior Member
                              • Jan 2006
                              • 1064

                              What if a retired officer qualed with his RAW that he purchased on department letterhead?

                              Comment

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