shooting tactics in vehicle

[JaMail]

interesting, i jsut watched like 8 of the various videos, in the one where the son jumps out and starts shooting, you can see the dog's tail wagging. same dog im guessing that jumped out at the wal mart parking lot.

[SoCalDep]

well a SWAT guy is going to act exactly the same as a patrol officer if faced with flying bullets wich this scenario is. they are going to try there best to not get hit while trying to drop the target as fast as possible while not killing anyone innocent.

now how do these vary from a civilian? if i was faced with a man shooting at me i would do the EXACT same thing.

now before bullets fly yes its totally different.. a swat guy might break into a house and throw flashbangs and be in full riot gear where as a patrol officer entering the same house might be in a vest and weilding only his pistol... but once shots are fired its all the same tactics... and if i were for some reason entering this same house and shots were fired.... same thing. use general combat tactics to stop your target as efficiently as possible.

and to answer your question yes i carry pretty similar gear to a patrol officer if the laws permit or in a SHTF scenario. because i will require the same exact tools as they would in a given situation.

So...Seeing as you feel confident enough to know LE and non-LE tactics are "the EXACT same thing" and you would therefore do the exact thing as a cop....Why don't you just tell us what "you" would do?

[JaMail]

to the OP, what is your goal in this situation?


some of the posts seem to be confused as to the difference between tactics and strategy.

in my head, ive always simplified it.

strategy is the plan, tactics are the actions to accomplish the plan.


Strategy,

Also, strategics. the science or art of combining and employing the means of war in planning and directing large military movements and operations.
2. the use or an instance of using this science or art.
3. skillful use of a stratagem: The salesperson's strategy was to seem always to agree with the customer.
4. a plan, method, or series of maneuvers or stratagems for obtaining a specific goal or result: a strategy for getting ahead in the world.

Tactics in this convo, im thinking number 3 pertains.
( usually used with a singular verb ) the art or science of disposing military or naval forces for battle and maneuvering them in battle.
2. ( used with a plural verb ) the maneuvers themselves.
3. ( used with a singular verb ) any mode of procedure for gaining advantage or success.

[PistolS&W]

So...Seeing as you feel confident enough to know LE and non-LE tactics are "the EXACT same thing" and you would therefore do the exact thing as a cop....Why don't you just tell us what "you" would do?

well i did give one option already....... not that its the answer to anyone faced with guys in backseats of cars with assault weapons... but like were all saying... its situation specific...

my point was that in that any given situation "man with gun vs. man with gun shooting at him". theres always going to be a BEST way to survive the fight of your life. and your badge or military rank wont give you super powers or deflect bullets. youll still have to execute the same general combat tactics.

[Samuelx]

Both teams in the Super Bowl are trying to win - scoring more points than the other team while preventing the other team from scoring. Neither side is going to tell the other side what plays/formations they are going to use before they use them...

[Samuelx]

theres always going to be a BEST way to survive the fight of your life.

Yeah, stop the threat as quickly and efficiently as possible while minimizing danger/injury to myself and others. HOW I do it is nobody else's business except mine and my partners (and possibly, if the stuff is hitting the fan badly enough, any additional assisting non-LE personnel At That Time).

[9mmepiphany]

well i did give one option already....... not that its the answer to anyone faced with guys in backseats of cars with assault weapons... but like were all saying... its situation specific...

from post #23

if you have guys in the backseat of a car with assault weapons they are going to have alot of blind spots. if you were a real bad mofo you COULD run up on them from a blind spot and point blank shoot them. kind of like bunkering some one. also keep in mind that everyone in this vehicle is going to be temporarily deaf from shooting a rifle in such a small space. so as loud as you are running up on them they wont hear you.

but would anyone have the brass to do this? maybe a small number.

I thought you were being facetious

my point was that in that any given situation "man with gun vs. man with gun shooting at him". theres always going to be a BEST way to survive the fight of your life. and your badge or military rank wont give you super powers or deflect bullets. youll still have to execute the same general combat tactics.

...and if you believe this, you truly don't understand the variables involved. it's would be a case of a little information being more dangerous than none at all.

There is a best way to survive...just survive.

how Patrol officers do it is based on our other responsibilities...and this would differ markedly from how SWAT, Warrants, Detectives or the Gang unit would handle it

[PistolS&W]

9mmepiphany

what other responsibilities? my understanding and correct me if im wrong but i was under the impression that LEO's had no legal responsibility to protect anyone other then themselves. i could be wrong but thats what i heard.

now i dont want to put words in your mouth by jumping ahead here but if your saying that a civilian would feel less responsibility of other innocent human lives if one was shot by accident or if a civilian was in immediate danger wed just turn our backs because we dont have a badge then thats way off base.

so once the bullets are flying what responsibility does a LEO/military person carry that a civilian does not?

[9mmepiphany]

LEOs are held to a higher standard due to their training.

you might be referring to: "Law enforcement agencies and personnel have no duty to protect individuals from the criminal acts of others; instead their duty is to preserve the peace and arrest law breakers for the protection of the general public."

I'm saying that LEOs respond differently based on their training and experience

[PistolS&W]

LEOs are held to a higher standard due to their training.

you might be referring to: "Law enforcement agencies and personnel have no duty to protect individuals from the criminal acts of others; instead their duty is to preserve the peace and arrest law breakers for the protection of the general public."

I'm saying that LEOs respond differently based on their training and experience

so my understanding that Law Enforcement Officers such as a city cop not being required to save others lives and put there own at risk is not correct?

they are infact REQUIRED to stick there neck out in any given situation in order to protect civilians? if broken is that punishable by jail time or just being fired or what?

i understand your saying that a LEO acts differently in combat then a civilian would but can you please give an example of a situation where a LEO would do something differently when some ones shooting at them that you would never see a civilian do? or are you just insisting blindly without facts?

and im not trying to be a jerk i just want to get to the facts behind this debate.

[TRICKSTER]

I'm proud of myself, I didn't get sucked into this one.

[9mmepiphany]

I refer you to post #19...It isn't a good idea to discuss specific tactics or responses. If you really want to know, join up or otherwise get training. it is a philosophical difference

I thought you were going to enlighten us with that one universal correct response, but it sounds like you're fishing...not very becoming

[SoCalDep]

so my understanding that Law Enforcement Officers such as a city cop not being required to save others lives and put there own at risk is not correct?

You are correct about being incorrect.

they are infact REQUIRED to stick there neck out in any given situation in order to protect civilians? if broken is that punishable by jail time or just being fired or what?

It depends on the situation. Depending on the laws and what "is" or "isn't" done they can be held civilly liable and can be disciplined to the level of termination, though probably not charged with a crime.

i understand your saying that a LEO acts differently in combat then a civilian would but can you please give an example of a situation where a LEO would do something differently when some ones shooting at them that you would never see a civilian do? or are you just insisting blindly without facts?

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...petent-are-you )

Cops aren't special forces military and therefore can't apply the same tactical options. Civilians aren't cops and therefore can't necessarily apply the same tactical options. To refuse to acknowledge this is unconscious incompetence.

Law Enforcement is held to a higher standard...morally, ethically, legally, through peer pressure and the fact that many, if not most of us work in law enforcement because we care about society. Those that loose that love for our fellow man eat their gun or quit. Many do the latter options. Many continue to take the fight to the bad guys.

[Tallship]

I know there are some who don't like Front Sight, but here's something to think about when understanding training, tactics, and can be applied to the specific situation above. Here are the (Front Sight) levels of individual competence:

" * Intentionally incompetent (II): The individual knows what they lack but, due to laziness or fear of exposing inadequacies, refuses to obtain training.
* Unconsciously incompetent (UI): Comprising perhaps 95% of gun owners, this group includes those who go to gun shops and buy gun magazines’ latest recommendations, assuming that prepares them for home invasion. These people don’t know what they don’t know. Bear in mind that this category includes not only average citizens, but in some cases police, members of the military and others.
* Consciously incompetent (CI): People who are aware of what they don’t know and decide to seek help in acquiring firearm skills.
* Consciously competent (CC): People who have developed defensive gun skills through hard work, but whose skills have not yet become reflexive.
* Unconsciously competent (UC): Those whose training is so thoroughly ingrained that it becomes reflexive."

Those are actually taken from Maslow's Four Stages of Competence first published in the forties. Iggy just added the first one and claimed them for his own. Another reason people don't like Front Site.

[PistolS&W]

I have a partner who was shot in the shoulder with a .357 Magnum and lost the use of his weak arm. He couldn't reload. He noticed a young girl playing in the street and broke cover, ran to the girl, picked her up and put her over a wall to get her out of the situation. To do this he had to expose himself and couldn't use his weapon during that time

bassically any sane person would do there best to get a child away from gun fire. not to take anything away from this officer and his selfless efforts.

You mention you carry similar equipment as law enforcement in your car. Does that equipment or your knowledge base help you to contain the suspect's movement, coordinate additional support and response, give you the ability to chase the suspect using lights and a siren to minimize the risk of traffic collision, do you constantly wear a vest that gives you some ballistic protection? Do you have immediate access to a long-gun and extra ammunition? Do you engage after the suspects have stopped shooting? What do you do if they drive away? Shooting is only one part of one tactical option and is itself a technique...yea, we'll all probably shoot about the same (hopefully) but that's far from saying we'll use the same tactics.

once he drives away the shooting stops and everything is different. ive made it very clear that im only reffering to when a fire fight is happening. and not all LEO's wear vests... theres advantages and dissadvantages. 2 main reasons being heat and weight.

and wether i engage a guy who isnt shooting back anymore is situational. as im sure it is for LEO's.. i highly doubt any LEO just shoots to kill no matter the time period and mood of the suspect. that could just turn into murder. if im in a situation where hes trying to give up, then no i dont keep shooting just because he tried to kill me already. and if hes back there not shooting because hes reloading then yes i will still engage him if my life or others around me are still at risk.

Law Enforcement training and equipment gives us tactical options that non-LE people simply don't have. This may be due to a lack of equipment, a lack of communication, or a lack of specific training. Most law enforcement officers are trained to understand this. When off duty, we have fewer tactical options due to lack of equipment and communication. This can significantly dictate what specific actions we use...even when the "bullets start to fly".

ok i think this is where were getting caught up. on the defenition of tactics. your considering calling for backup a tactical move. wich it kind of is but i think were on a different page and both arguing to different points that will never meet up.

let me try to make this more clear cut. your on duty and asked to clear a vacant house because some one called in saying that a guy with a gun went in there. so you enter and in one of the rooms find a man who starts to shoot.. some how he dosent hit you and the shootouts on... now slap a civilian in that situation. does the police officer do anything different then the civilian from this point until the bad guy dies?

i guess i should have said "shooting tactics" are the same. we all duck and weave and shoot around corners the same. so to the bad guy the info wont be any less helpful if i tell him how id do it then if a LEO told him how theyd do it.

i just found it silly that some one said that "we cant let the LEO's shooting tactics leak out because then everyone will know you have to pull the trigger to make guns go off". (not actual quote)

" * Intentionally incompetent (II): The individual knows what they lack but, due to laziness or fear of exposing inadequacies, refuses to obtain training.
* Unconsciously incompetent (UI): Comprising perhaps 95% of gun owners, this group includes those who go to gun shops and buy gun magazines’ latest recommendations, assuming that prepares them for home invasion. These people don’t know what they don’t know. Bear in mind that this category includes not only average citizens, but in some cases police, members of the military and others.
* Consciously incompetent (CI): People who are aware of what they don’t know and decide to seek help in acquiring firearm skills.
* Consciously competent (CC): People who have developed defensive gun skills through hard work, but whose skills have not yet become reflexive.
* Unconsciously competent (UC): Those whose training is so thoroughly ingrained that it becomes reflexive."

well i would have to put myself in (CI) and (UC) because you never stop learning and the guy that puts himself in (UC) only is sure to lack in some skill sooner or later. like it says you dont know what you dont know. thats why i love training and shooting in general. you think "what else can there be to learn" and then you learn something new and go "wow if i hadnt known that". and it continues.

Cops aren't special forces military and therefore can't apply the same tactical options. Civilians aren't cops and therefore can't necessarily apply the same tactical options. To refuse to acknowledge this is unconscious incompetence.

like i said different page. i should have been more specific and said "shooting tactics" it may have saved us alot of typing


but anyways i enjoyed this discussion and always enjoy a good debate even if im on the losing end. so dont take my enjoyment as me just being an A-hole.