School Me on ID

[meangreen46]

Magic words for you and your passengers if pulled over in a traffic stop:

"Am I being detained or am I free to leave?"

How about you just find out why you were pulled over and cooperate. It will get you further than pissing off the cop. Before I was in law enforcement, I was pulled over by CHP and I said exactly what you said and I ended up getting cited for every possible fix it item on my vehicle. I learned that these guys have a job to do and me being an "all-knowing" legal idiot wasn't going to get me anywhere.

More often than not, I find that your phrase actually means, "I am hiding something and I am in a hurry to get out of here so you don't find it." (please no speeches..I am just pointing out what my personal interactions have lead to)

[AAShooter]

How about you just find out why you were pulled over and cooperate. It will get you further than pissing off the cop. Before I was in law enforcement, I was pulled over by CHP and I said exactly what you said and I ended up getting cited for every possible fix it item on my vehicle. I learned that these guys have a job to do and me being an "all-knowing" legal idiot wasn't going to get me anywhere.

More often than not, I find that your phrase actually means, "I am hiding something and I am in a hurry to get out of here so you don't find it." (please no speeches..I am just pointing out what my personal interactions have lead to)

Your point is well taken and in general I agree. But people keep wondering if they or their passengers are free to leave . . . the point is you can ask. Most officers will tell. As far as your situation, the officer was not being professional and lacked integrity if your question was a simple question for information.

As far as cooperating, that is fine as long as it is short brief and to the point. When LEOs start fishing on a minor traffic infraction about where I came from, where I am going, etc, etc . . . that's a bunch of crap.

Finally, a lot depends on how and when the question is asked.

[AAShooter]

What's so magical about that?

Often, you are free to leave.

[IrishJoe3]

AAShooter....if my red lights on and you're pulled over, you're detained. Don't play word games with me, I don't like standing on the side of the road any more than you like being there.

Meangreen hit it square on the head...

How about you just find out why you were pulled over and cooperate. It will get you further than pissing off the cop. Before I was in law enforcement, I was pulled over by CHP and I said exactly what you said and I ended up getting cited for every possible fix it item on my vehicle. I learned that these guys have a job to do and me being an "all-knowing" legal idiot wasn't going to get me anywhere.

[meangreen46]

Your point is well taken and in general I agree. But people keep wondering if they or their passengers are free to leave . . . the point is you can ask. Most officers will tell. As far as your situation, the officer was not being professional and lacked integrity if your question was a simple question for information.

As far as cooperating, that is fine as long as it is short brief and to the point. When LEOs start fishing on a minor traffic infraction about where I came from, where I am going, etc, etc . . . that's a bunch of crap.

Finally, a lot depends on how and when the question is asked.

Our magic words are Due Dilligence. You can detain somebody for as long as you want.....so long as you are practicing due dilligence and not "lolligagging". In other words, as long as you have a reason for the driver and/or passenger to be there and you aren't just holding them to hold them...then you are fine.

The officer that cited me was just doing his job. He didn't lack integrity. He wasn't fishing....a good CHP officer can have your entire vehicle "sized up" by the time they reach you window to ask for your ID. He just decided to take it to the limit and literally write me up for evey single thing he could because I gave him attitude. Yeah....I would like to be able to say he was a dik. But in all reality, they can and will (or sometimes not) cite you for everything. the job says to cite for violations...he was doing just that.

[AAShooter]

AAShooter....if my red lights on and you're pulled over, you're detained. Don't play word games with me, I don't like standing on the side of the road any more than you like being there.

Meangreen hit it square on the head...

Okay IrishJoe. I understand your point. If a respectfully asked question for information is "word games", I think you need to reconsider your perspective. Officers seldom make it explicit when you are detained and when you are not and use that to their advantage.

Let me run a scenerio.

I get pulled over. I fully cooperate with officer. He takes my license, registration and insurance information goes back to his vehicle. He does whatever he does and comes back to my car. He returns all my information without a citation. At that point I "assume" I am free to leave.

Yet, the officer starts asking 20 questions. Where am I coming from? Where am I going? etc, etc, etc. I have no interest in answering a bunch of questions . . . are you suggesting I just sit there an tolerate this officer's questioning until he gets bored?

BTW, I appreciate the work you do out there.

[meangreen46]

Often, you are free to leave.

The only time you are free to leave after that statement is after we have gone through the questioning. If you start off with that statement, it might change things a bit. Like I said before....you're better off just answering the questions and waiting (reasonable wait) until they say, "Have a nice day".

[AAShooter]

Our magic words are Due Dilligence. You can detain somebody for as long as you want.....so long as you are practicing due dilligence and not "lolligagging". In other words, as long as you have a reason for the driver and/or passenger to be there and you aren't just holding them to hold them...then you are fine.

The officer that cited me was just doing his job. He didn't lack integrity. He wasn't fishing....a good CHP officer can have your entire vehicle "sized up" by the time they reach you window to ask for your ID. He just decided to take it to the limit and literally write me up for evey single thing he could because I gave him attitude. Yeah....I would like to be able to say he was a dik. But in all reality, they can and will (or sometimes not) cite you for everything. the job says to cite for violations...he was doing just that.

No problems with the first paragraph. All sorts of problems with the second. If the officer is not going to "selectively" enforce fairly, there is a lack of integrity. If you gave him attititude, that is one thing . . . if you asked an appropriate question for information . . . that's a problem.

[meangreen46]

Okay IrishJoe. I understand your point. If a respectfully asked question for information is "word games", I think you need to reconsider your perspective. Officers seldom make it explicit when you are detained and when you are not and use that to their advantage.

Let me run a scenerio.

I get pulled over. I fully cooperate with officer. He takes my license, registration and insurance information goes back to his vehicle. He does whatever he does and comes back to my car. He returns all my information without a citation. At that point I "assume" I am free to leave.

Yet, the officer starts asking 20 questions. Where am I coming from? Where am I going? etc, etc, etc. I have no interest in answering a bunch of questions . . . are you suggesting I just sit there an tolerate this officer's questioning until he gets bored?

BTW, I appreciate the work you do out there.

Here's another scenario....A male just murdered a female on the next block over and he fits your description. In fact, your car even fits the limited info he has as well. He takes your stuff to his car...runs it all....comes back clean because admin hasn't had time to update your records. However, that doesn't mean you still don't fit the description of the subject they are looking for. Through asking other questions, he finishes his investigation because you are calm and collected when answering. While standing there, he gets a radio call in his ear that they have the suspect in custody and you go on your way.

If you ask, "Am I free to go?" in the middle of all that, he might think you have a reason to leave ASAP and he will just continue asking questions because you might just be that guy they're looking for.

[AAShooter]

The only time you are free to leave after that statement is after we have gone through the questioning. If you start off with that statement, it might change things a bit. Like I said before....you're better off just answering the questions and waiting (reasonable wait) until they say, "Have a nice day".

I am not suggesting you start off with that question as the officer approaches your vehicle but at some point, the question may be appropriate.

[meangreen46]

No problems with the first paragraph. All sorts of problems with the second. If the officer is not going to "selectively" enforce fairly, there is a lack of integrity. If you gave him attititude, that is one thing . . . if you asked an appropriate question for information . . . that's a problem.

Asking if you are free to go early on (or any point really) to an officer is giving an attitude. That's like me rushing you at your job. If you were a contractor, it would be like me asking if you were done yet when you just started a project.

[AAShooter]

Here's another scenario....A male just murdered a female on the next block over and he fits your description. In fact, your car even fits the limited info he has as well. He takes your stuff to his car...runs it all....comes back clean because admin hasn't had time to update your records. However, that doesn't mean you still don't fit the description of the subject they are looking for. Through asking other questions, he finishes his investigation because you are calm and collected when answering. While standing there, he gets a radio call in his ear that they have the suspect in custody and you go on your way.

If you ask, "Am I free to go?" in the middle of all that, he might think you have a reason to leave ASAP and he will just continue asking questions because you might just be that guy they're looking for.

Despite the fact you didn't answer my question, let me try to address you scenerio.

First, my time (like yours) is valuable and I seldom don't have places to go so asking if I can go is reasonable. Next, if I ask the question and the officer tells me I am being detained, then I am yours. I will try to cooperate with a reasonable investigation. Third, I suspect you would retain my license as a minimum and maybe all my documentation until you were satisfied . . . just a guess.

I would be a lot more understanding if you explained the situation a bit.

[meangreen46]

Bottom line is this....

If you go ask this question on the other side of this forum (Non Leo), you're gonna get a completely different answer. You'll get people telling you that the officer is robbing you of your childhood or something. We're just saying that if you want to leave the scene of a traffic stop as soon as you can...just cooperate. 99% of the time, the officer should be cool with a person who is cooperative because it makes their job that much easier.

[AAShooter]

Asking if you are free to go early on (or any point really) to an officer is giving an attitude. That's like me rushing you at your job. If you were a contractor, it would be like me asking if you were done yet when you just started a project.

Thanks for the perspective. People ask people all the time if they are still needed and can leave. You complete paperwork at a bank, you ask if any thing else is needed and if you can go. You drop you kid off at a school event and you check in--then you make sure they have everything they need so you can leave. That normal transaction is somehow offensive to LEOs. We are all busy and have things to do.

I respect and cooperate with law enforcement but is appears that you are suggesting more.

[AAShooter]

Bottom line is this....

If you go ask this question on the other side of this forum (Non Leo), you're gonna get a completely different answer. You'll get people telling you that the officer is robbing you of your childhood or something. We're just saying that if you want to leave the scene of a traffic stop as soon as you can...just cooperate. 99% of the time, the officer should be cool with a person who is cooperative because it makes their job that much easier.

Understood. I appreciate the comments and the chance to discuss items like this with LEOs. It helps to understand your perspective.