Building search with a shotgun - question?

[Tallship]

Couple of comments on this thread:

1. The 870 firing pin IS spring loaded. As a matter of fact, when th back end of the firing pin is flush with the back of the bolt, the front end is not protruding, so the hammer has to hit that sucker pretty hard for the pin to impact the round.

2. When I took my Glock armorer's course, the instructor asked: Who is the most likely person to shoot an officer? His answer: No, it's not the ex-wife. It's his partner.

[jmatt511]

Building search with shotgun is conducted just like any firearm: safety off, round in chamber, and finger off the trigger. Weapon safety first, and know your surroundings, assignment, and partners locations on a search team.

The only time a shotgun's chamber should be empty is when it is "cruiser ready" in a vehicle. The shotgun's safety is worthless in my opinion because the firing pin is a free-floated. That means if you bang it hard on the ground with a loaded chamber it WILL go off.

Remember what they taught you about firearms during training: during a stressful situation, you will forget those fine-motor skills and just go one gross motor skills and training. The shotgun's safety is a fine motor skill, and if conducted with a fight-or-flight situation, you will not remember to disengage the safety.

Just my .02 cents, and I have done building searches with a shotgun.

+1 exactly the way I was trained and did the searchs.

[Jonathan Doe]

As far as I can remember, there was no policy regarding the safety on/off if you are searching for the suspect. When the pistol clears the holster, it the safety comes off. So as the shotgun's safety when I was searching for the suspect.

When I went through the FBI SWAT school, the SMG's safety came off when we entered the house.

[Average Joe American]

Ok so so far I have heard seasoned cops say they search (with a shotgun) "safety off" and some said "safety on".

The safety on guys say its kept on to prevent them from accidentally killing fellow officers in the building or non threats in general. Search with your finger on the safety button. And simply...its a risk management policy.

The safety off guys say they simply follow the golden rule of "keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire". Be proficient with your equipment or dont go doing dangerous work in the first place. Walking around in a killzone/building/house with your safety on could be fatal since under stress and fear and adrenaline...you could forget to take it off safe?

Both sides are understandable.

My question is, if policy is telling you you need to keep the safety on when doing a search with a shotgun...what are they really saying? Is management saying that you lack the training and skills to properly identify a threat before you pull the trigger with a shotgun but are completely competent searching with a handgun and its safety off?

[tyrist]

Ok so so far I have heard seasoned cops say they search (with a shotgun) "safety off" and some said "safety on".

The safety on guys say its kept on to prevent them from accidentally killing fellow officers in the building or non threats in general. Search with your finger on the safety button. And simply...its a risk management policy.

The safety off guys say they simply follow the golden rule of "keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire". Be proficient with your equipment or dont go doing dangerous work in the first place. Walking around in a killzone/building/house with your safety on could be fatal since under stress and fear and adrenaline...you could forget to take it off safe?

Both sides are understandable.

My question is, if policy is telling you you need to keep the safety on when doing a search with a shotgun...what are they really saying? Is management saying that you lack the training and skills to properly identify a threat before you pull the trigger with a shotgun but are completely competent searching with a handgun and its safety off?

It is because of the short/light pull of the shotgun trigger. Also having your finger on the safety while doing the search allows you to disengage the safety and pull the trigger just as fast as if your finger was along the frame.

[jason514]

When your a lefty it does!

+1 on that!

[9mmepiphany]

2. When I took my Glock armorer's course, the instructor asked: Who is the most likely person to shoot an officer? His answer: No, it's not the ex-wife. It's his partner.

maybe with a Glock..ie. ND
but in 28 years in LE, i've known more officers shot by their wifes/GFs than their partners

[9mmepiphany]

but are completely competent searching with a handgun and its safety off?

i think this would be platform specific

while on duty, i've carried (besides revolvers) the Colt 1911, H&K P7 and varios DA/SA platforms. when doing building searches with the 1911, the safety stays on until i'm ready to fire...otherwise it would be like walking around with a cocked revolver or a cocked DA/SA

the H&K did not have a thumb safety, but it is correctly carried completely uncocked until you are ready to fire. you cock it as you bring it up/press it out

while i understand the school of thought that teaches disengaging the safety on a 1911 during the drawing motion, in LE we spend a lot more time pointing than shooting

[Average Joe American]

It is because of the short/light pull of the shotgun trigger. Also having your finger on the safety while doing the search allows you to disengage the safety and pull the trigger just as fast as if your finger was along the frame.

Ok so most of us have years and years of training that has instilled, index your finger til ready to fire but you are saying we should should change that mindset when doing a search with a shotgun by keeping your finger ON THE SAFETY? Do all the safety on guys train this way?

[9mmepiphany]

Do all the safety on guys train this way? Keeping my finger on the trigger seems counter intuitive to the muscle memory of indexing my finger all these years?

the safety becomes the index point for your trigger finger rather than having it on the frame. you press it in as your finger moves to the trigger.

with an elongated/big/ fat/extended safety, you canleave your finger extended and index your finger joint on the safety...it disengages the safety as your finger enters the trigger guard...i just confirmed on my HD SLP

[RangemasterP226]

Didn't realize this was such a divisive issue. I am a dept range instructor and detective. My opinion (we all have one!) is when its Go Time, whether is be pistol, shotgun or AR:

Round in Chamber
Safety Off
Finger off trigger until ready to fire.

100% consistent among weapons platforms.

[Average Joe American]

Consistency makes sense to me but apparently some dept. policy makers want officers to handle handguns differently than shotguns and rifles as far as safety on or off while doing a search?

I guess its a case by case issue. Some agencies want it on and some want it off?

[veeklog]

Didn't realize this was such a divisive issue. I am a dept range instructor and detective. My opinion (we all have one!) is when its Go Time, whether is be pistol, shotgun or AR:

Round in Chamber
Safety Off
Finger off trigger until ready to fire.

100% consistent among weapons platforms.

+1 for the Rangemaster; our SFI's teach us the exact same things.

The reality is that more and more departments and officers are going to Glocks, M&P's, HK LEM triggers, DAO's and other such guns. Thes guns are void of safeties, and it all it requires is that officer put his finger on the trigger and go "bang." The reason is simple: many LEO's today don't practice or shoot past their quarterly qual course. You put a shotgun in someones hands, like a situation where his/her partner is wounded and the officer has to pick-up the shotgun and return fire, and is not familiar with the safety (because the issued handgun does not have one), then he/she will not be able to protect either his/her partner or their life in a really bad situation. Again, you train the way you fight, and unfortunately, not everyone takes training serious.

BTW: in my agency not everyone quals with a long weapon because it is not mandatory that every agent be issued one. However, it is HIGHLY encouraged by the SFI's that we be issued and carry a secondary weapon. If we are issued long guns, whether shotgun, MP-5, or M-4, we have to qual and be proficient with it every quarter.

[toconnor1074]

It is because of the short/light pull of the shotgun trigger. Also having your finger on the safety while doing the search allows you to disengage the safety and pull the trigger just as fast as if your finger was along the frame.

+1, you can have you finger on the safety of an 870 (which still keeps your finger off the trigger until ready to fire) and have minimal movement from disengaging the safety and firing the weapon.

Its a matter of personal preference. Train as you fight, I would never tell someone not to do what is natural and what they were trained for. In a high stess enviroment a LEO is gonna do what he wants anyway when it comes to safe on/off. Just make sure your report has that sentence " fearing for my life, and the live's of my fellow officers."