Building search with a shotgun - question?

[Average Joe American]

I have never taken a additional active shooter or building search training other than in the academy and limited OJT info from older cops.

Would you do a search for an active shooter with a long gun (say a shotgun) with your safety off or on?

I hear that most LE SOP's say to search with the safety "on", then push it "off" as a threat presents itself. Basically leaving you in a "reaction" mode vs "action".

Its also argued that the safety needs to be on during a search because a bump could discharge the shotgun. Also an UD (unintentional discharge is the new wiz bang word) could happen when the long gun is handed off to other officers?

I obviously need more training because my instinct tells me that I need it off since the active shooter's gun isnt going to be on safe when we make contact I am assuming?

How do they do things in your neck of the woods?

[retired]

I have never taken a additional active shooter or building search training other than in the academy and limited OJT info from older cops.

Would you do a search for an active shooter with a long gun (say a shotgun) with your safety off or on?

I hear that most LE SOP's say to search with the safety "on", then push it "off" as a threat presents itself. Basically "reaction" vs "action".

Its also argued that the safety needs to be on during a search because a bump could discharge the shotgun. Also an AD could happen when the long gun is handed off to other officers?

I obviously need more training because my instinct tells me that I need it off since the active shooter's gun isnt going to be on safe when we make contact I am assuming?

How do they do things in your neck of the woods?

I'll let the active leos answer your question as I've been retired for awhile and policy may have changed. I would only say your mention of an AD would more correctly be entitled an ND IMO.

[BigDogatPlay]

Not to hijack the thread but , 'Unintentional Discharge'... cute. I suppose that probably looks a little better in the file from a risk management perspective than 'Accidental' or 'Negligent'. But I think I might be lined up with the opinion immediately above on that.

Safety on / safety off.... everywhere I worked we secured shotguns in the unit....

** Mag full
** Hammer down
** Empty chamber
** Safety off

I can't remember a time that the safety went on until the call was code 4 and we went back to the unit with the gun on safe, to fully clear the chamber and mag tube, take safety off to drop the hammer on an inspected and verified empty chamber, and then recharge the mag before securing the gun. That's how I was trained early on, and the way I deployed the gun throughout my time.

While I can see a "bump" causing a discharge, my sense tells me that likely 99% of such discharges would be because the officer had his finger on the bang switch when the gun was "bumped". That would be poor discipline, IMO, and an ND as surmised above.

It's been almost three years away for me now, and I am sure things have changed so can't speak to how policies have evolved.

[veeklog]

Building search with shotgun is conducted just like any firearm: safety off, round in chamber, and finger off the trigger. Weapon safety first, and know your surroundings, assignment, and partners locations on a search team.

The only time a shotgun's chamber should be empty is when it is "cruiser ready" in a vehicle. The shotgun's safety is worthless in my opinion because the firing pin is a free-floated. That means if you bang it hard on the ground with a loaded chamber it WILL go off.

Remember what they taught you about firearms during training: during a stressful situation, you will forget those fine-motor skills and just go one gross motor skills and training. The shotgun's safety is a fine motor skill, and if conducted with a fight-or-flight situation, you will not remember to disengage the safety.

Just my .02 cents, and I have done building searches with a shotgun.

[mothermopar]

Safety off, round in chamber, finger off the trigger... that goes for any gun with us when conducting any type of enforcement action.

[jason514]

As far as a building search with an active shooter, I don't know if the shotgun is the best choice. In an active shooter situation...at a mall school, etc....there is too much potential to hit civilians with the shotgun. I would stick with a handgun or rifle.

[socalblue]

As far as a building search with an active shooter, I don't know if the shotgun is the best choice. In an active shooter situation...at a mall school, etc....there is too much potential to hit civilians with the shotgun. I would stick with a handgun or rifle.

Given a choice I suspect most would opt for the rifle but all you have is a shotgun, learn how to use it to best advantage. A solid hit with 00 buck stops most fights. Add slugs & you have a great barrier penetrator.

[9mmepiphany]

our department mandated that the safety be on until you were ready to shoot and that's the way we trained with them...but i've been retired a couple of years too.

let me say though that the reason many agencies teach "safety off" is because of the difficulty taking the Remington 870 safety off due to it's location and size.

the last time i took a tactical shotgun class...on my own dime...they taught oversized safeties on and you pushed them of with you finger joint (2nd) rather than the tip. that's how i take the safety off on my FN SLP

[retired]

For those of you who responded by saying safety off, finger off the trigger and chamber loaded, I don't know if you are le or not. One thing leos have to take into consideration is dept. policy.

Tho it may be more logical for safety reasons, to carry it in the above manner, a dept. policy, such as mentioned by 9mmepiphany, might be in place.

My former dept. required our Beretta 92f to have the safety on when the gun was in the holster. We were trained to take the safety off as we withdrew the weapon.

Someone I worked with failed to do that as we were searching a residential 459. The defective holster (which we weren't aware of at that point) cocked the hammer without his knowledge. When he drew the gun, he put his finger on the trigger as I bent down to search under the bed. I felt the bullet go by my head and saw it enter the carpet about 3" from my right foot.

[veeklog]

For those of you who responded by saying safety off, finger off the trigger and chamber loaded, I don't know if you are le or not. One thing leos have to take into consideration is dept. policy.

Tho it may be more logical for safety reasons, to carry it in the above manner, a dept. policy, such as mentioned by 9mmepiphany, might be in place.

My former dept. required our Beretta 92f to have the safety on when the gun was in the holster. We were trained to take the safety off as we withdrew the weapon.

Someone I worked with failed to do that as we were searching a residential 459. The defective holster (which we weren't aware of at that point) cocked the hammer without his knowledge. When he drew the gun, he put his finger on the trigger as I bent down to search under the bed. I felt the bullet go by my head and saw it enter the carpet about 3" from my right foot.

I have been a LEO for 12 years, have done more search warrants and controlled deliveries than I care to count, and all I can say is that unless the 12 gauge is in the car on cruiser ready and you are about to hit a door, there is a round in the chamber. Our agency policy is the same on long guns as it is on handguns. If you go into an enforcement situation a round is in the chamber and it is ready to fire. You train the way you fight, period. Safeties are for the range for us on rifles only.

The truth is that a safety is a fine motor skill that unless you train constantly to take the safety off, you will not remember to take it off in a "sh*t hits the fan" situation. How many of us can say that the only time we see many LEO's shoot their issued handguns is at the quarterly qualification course? Why do you think they teach the slingshot method of reloading your firearm than pushing the slide release? The answer is that simple: the slingshot method is a gross motor skill. Same thing goes for safety of either shotguns, handguns, M-4, MP-5, or AUG. When you were issued your Model 15 many years ago, were you taught to carry it with five loaded chambers instead of six, with the hammer resting on an empty chamber?

A few years ago the situation happened to an agent that I knew was a very sharp guy. He was off-duty when a bad guy jumped him in his own house he was remodeling. He had the drop on the guy, but when the bad guy reached for his own gun, the agent pulled his gun out, and when he pulled the trigger it went "click." The bad guy took out his own gun and shot the agent dead, stole his car and gun, and went off for a few more days before he was captured. What happened was the agent went to the range, shot his quarterly qual course, loaded his gun, but forgot to chamber a round in the chamber. Can you associate the same argument of the safety on a 870 as a loaded chamber? Yes, because both situations are considered fine motor skills. BTW: that particular situation happened in the Southeast, not Cali.

I understand your situation when the guy on that 459 let one go past your head; believe me, I would have pissed too. But, in that context, was the guy 10-8, someone you would trust your life, or was he a complete wing nut? I also understand agency liability and their policies of an agency. The people that make those policies are the same ones that have never made an arrest in their lives; or they make those policies in a knee-jerk reaction because some clown did something completely retarded and it punishes the rest of us.

[fullrearview]

Safety off, but I would prefer to have an AR, if a precision shot is needed. Good thing to remember.....Nearly ALL active shooters surrender or take their own lives, when confronted by an armed person....But always train for the shootout!

[tyrist]

We search with the safety on.

It doesn't add any time to push the safety off and then pull the trigger on a remington 870.

[BigDogatPlay]

For those of you who responded by saying safety off, finger off the trigger and chamber loaded, I don't know if you are le or not. One thing leos have to take into consideration is dept. policy.

That level of detail was never codified in any GO manual I worked under. It was what we trained.

That said, when I transitioned to S&W autos our policy dictated safety on when holstered and we trained to that standard and to rotate to safety off during the draw stroke. To this day it's still a natural for me... and made the later transition to Sig a long road.

But that level of detail was never applied to a deployed shotgun in our book when I was active.

[fullrearview]

We search with the safety on.

It doesn't add any time to push the safety off and then pull the trigger on a remington 870.

When your a lefty it does!

[toconnor1074]

When conducting a search of anything, Safety on finger on safety.

When target presents itself finger on safety still, until you made a decision to fire.

I do yard searches, building searchs, and room clearing often. theres no reason to have safety off unless you want to kill something. This is how LEO's shoot things they arent suppose to like them selves or others.

Round in chamber, Safety on,same with AR.