PC 537e(a) Question

[Ron-Solo]

Everyone seems to forget their are a lot of people who are prohibited from possessing a firearm. We can still investigate that possible felony.

In my opinion, the UOC movement is going to provoke the antis toward legislation that will make it illegal. This is not the right time for it. You need to wait until more favorable case law comes down and there are more pro-2A legislators are in Sac.

[SJgunguy24]

Everyone seems to forget their are a lot of people who are prohibited from possessing a firearm. We can still investigate that possible felony.

In my opinion, the UOC movement is going to provoke the antis toward legislation that will make it illegal. This is not the right time for it. You need to wait until more favorable case law comes down and there are more pro-2A legislators are in Sac.

I've never UOC nor do I plan too, I just thought of a situation that the unloaded check wouldn't be needed.
If i'm a felon, i'm not UOC. Never let em' know what you got.

[Fjold]

I hate to play what if's guys but what if...My pistol is holsterd in a thigh rig, no mag and slide locked back? That gun is clearly unloaded and wouldn't be subject to any search? Am I correct on this one?

And no I will NOT be trying this while riding my bicycle.

From any distance a LEO could not tell if there was a round in the chamber, even with the slide locked back.

[camsoup]

The big problem that UOC guys are going to run into is a situation where they get stopped and have the serial covered on purpose with something like tape (as opposed to a sidesaddle/light/etc.). That alone would go a long way toward reasonable suspicion that a crime was afoot. So then I run the serial number and determine that the pistol is not registered or worse, registered to someone else. If I can't contact that person and verify that the pistol is not stolen, or if, based on the totality of the circumstances I can't verify that the pistol is not stolen, poor UOC guy may go to jail for RC 496PC.

How is it you can remove the tape without PC??, that would be a violation of the 4th amendment unless you have a warrent to "search" for the serial number.

Also, handguns are not required to be registered, and it is not against the law to carry another persons handgun.

If someone is lawfully open carrying, the only thing the PC gives an officer the right to do is check the loaded/not loaded status of the weapon. It does not say you can detain the person longer, run the serial number, or even ask for ID. If no crime has been committed (once you check the weapon and see it is unloaded) the person should be on his/her way at that point. You have no grounds to detain them any longer than to check weapon status.

Officers may not agree with the fact that law abiding citizens can open carry in this state, but you will just have to learn to live with it.

[SoCalDep]

How is it you can remove the tape without PC??, that would be a violation of the 4th amendment unless you have a warrent to "search" for the serial number.

Also, handguns are not required to be registered, and it is not against the law to carry another persons handgun.

If someone is lawfully open carrying, the only thing the PC gives an officer the right to do is check the loaded/not loaded status of the weapon. It does not say you can detain the person longer, run the serial number, or even ask for ID. If no crime has been committed (once you check the weapon and see it is unloaded) the person should be on his/her way at that point. You have no grounds to detain them any longer than to check weapon status.

Officers may not agree with the fact that law abiding citizens can open carry in this state, but you will just have to learn to live with it.

You are completely wrong. If, during the legal inspection of the firearm I note in plain view the tape covering the area of the pistol which, through my training and experience, I know is the area containing the weapon's serial number, you are in clear violation of the title of this thread...537e(a)PC and thus subject to arrest. Incident to arrest I can conduct a search of your person and the weapon, which, as part of the crime, becomes evidence.

While not illegal to have a non-registered handgun, or necessarily someone else's handgun, if the facts and circumstances would lead a reasonable person to believe that you covered the serial number to avoid it being seen, no owner or legal possession of the pistol can be established through investigation, you could be arrested for reasonable cause possession of stolen property. Read 836PC. This is done all the time related to vehicle theft and is an established legal practice.

[Ron-Solo]

How is it you can remove the tape without PC??, that would be a violation of the 4th amendment unless you have a warrent to "search" for the serial number.

OK, I just take you straight to jail for altering the serial number and we straighten it out later. By being antagonistic, you make me less inclined to cut you any slack. Why would a law abiding citizen hide the serial number. What have you got to hide. You can still exercise your rights without hiding the serial number.

Also, handguns are not required to be registered, and it is not against the law to carry another persons handgun.

True. But I've revovered many stolen guns that were not yet reported stolen because the crook that was carrying it couldn't answer simple questions that would indicate he was in lawful possession of it.

If someone is lawfully open carrying, the only thing the PC gives an officer the right to do is check the loaded/not loaded status of the weapon. It does not say you can detain the person longer, run the serial number, or even ask for ID. If no crime has been committed (once you check the weapon and see it is unloaded) the person should be on his/her way at that point. You have no grounds to detain them any longer than to check weapon status.

Wrong on so many levels. You are intrepreting 12031(e) too tightly. There are so many other factors that come into play in these situations. I wouldn't expect someone without extensive training and experience to know all the ins & outs of police work. You can't get that from just reading a penal code.

Wishing it to be so, doesn't make it that way. I see many OC supporters repeatedly claim we can't run serial numbers. Get used to it - WE CAN and it is upheld daily in courts throughout the state

Officers may not agree with the fact that law abiding citizens can open carry in this state, but you will just have to learn to live with it.

I don't think most of us care, but a lot of us think it is tactically stupid and many people who OC don't possess the needed good judgement to act properly in a fast evolving situation. Many highly trained individuals find themselves uncapable of reacting appropriately, let alone the high school dropout who clears a NICS check and can afford to but a gun & holster. Many law enforcement officers change professions once they face down a life threatening situation

If you are legally open carrying, you can relax. We will check you out for many reasons, not just OC, and if you're legit, you'll be on your way. For many reasons, I'm not going to discuss details on tactics, probable cause and the search & seizure guidelines. Just remember, everything we do on a daily basis is reviewed at many levels before it gets to court, and then at the various levels of the courts.

[Jonathan Doe]

On the other note, doesn't LEO have a duty to check to see if the firearms was loaded or not?

1. If semiauto without a magazine, there is a possibility that the chamber could be loaded. Although the owner claimed that the firearms is not loaded, how would the LEO know without inspecting it?

2. For revolvers, it is hard to see if it was loaded or not by just looking, especially if it is in the holster. Can LEO not check it?

Thought I would just ask since I left patrol assignment in 1994, and I was not very familiar with open carry issues.

[Fire in the Hole]

How is it you can remove the tape without PC??, that would be a violation of the 4th amendment unless you have a warrent to "search" for the serial number.

Also, handguns are not required to be registered, and it is not against the law to carry another persons handgun.

If someone is lawfully open carrying, the only thing the PC gives an officer the right to do is check the loaded/not loaded status of the weapon. It does not say you can detain the person longer, run the serial number, or even ask for ID. If no crime has been committed (once you check the weapon and see it is unloaded) the person should be on his/her way at that point. You have no grounds to detain them any longer than to check weapon status.

Officers may not agree with the fact that law abiding citizens can open carry in this state, but you will just have to learn to live with it.

Perhaps this section may help clarify some things for you:




833.5. (a) P.C.: In addition to any other detention permitted by law, if
a peace officer has reasonable cause to believe that a person has a
firearm or other deadly weapon with him or her in violation of any
provision of law relating to firearms or deadly weapons the peace
officer may detain that person to determine whether a crime relating
to firearms or deadly weapons has been committed. (This is where 537(e) P.C. kicks in, and establishes the probable cause.)
For purposes of this section "reasonable cause to detain" requires
that the circumstances known or apparent to the officer must include
specific and articulable facts causing him or her to suspect that
some offense relating to firearms or deadly weapons has taken place
or is occurring or is about to occur and that the person he or she
intends to detain is involved in that offense. (The tape covering the serial number is the physical evidence for the element of this crime.)The circumstances must be such as would cause any reasonable peace officer in like
position, drawing when appropriate on his or her training and
experience, to suspect the same offense and the same involvement by
the person in question.
(b) Incident to any detention permitted pursuant to subdivision
(a), a peace officer may conduct a limited search of the person for
firearms or weapons if the peace officer reasonably concludes that
the person detained may be armed and presently dangerous to the peace
officer or others. Any firearm or weapon seized pursuant to a valid
detention or search pursuant to this section shall be admissible in
evidence in any proceeding for any purpose permitted by law.
(c) This section shall not be construed to otherwise limit the
authority of a peace officer to detain any person or to make an
arrest based on reasonable cause.
(d) This section shall not be construed to permit a peace officer
to conduct a detention or search of any person at the person's
residence or place of business absent a search warrant or other
reasonable cause to detain or search.
(e) If a firearm or weapon is seized pursuant to this section and
the person from whom it was seized owned the firearm or weapon and is
convicted of a violation of any offense relating to the possession
of such firearm or weapon, the court shall order the firearm or
weapon to be deemed a nuisance and disposed of in the manner provided
by Section 12028.

[camsoup]

OK, I just take you straight to jail for altering the serial number and we straighten it out later. By being antagonistic, you make me less inclined to cut you any slack. Why would a law abiding citizen hide the serial number. What have you got to hide. You can still exercise your rights without hiding the serial number.

Why would an upstanding officer sworn to uphold and protect the constitution trample on law abiding citizens rights without probable cause. Walking down the street with a holstered firearm does not give probable cause for anything other than 12031(e), assuming we are not within 1000 ft of a school, or some where possession of the weapon is illegal, ie. county park, court house, public building etc.

True. But I've revovered many stolen guns that were not yet reported stolen because the crook that was carrying it couldn't answer simple questions that would indicate he was in lawful possession of it.

I'm not disputing the fact that you may have recovered stolen weapons in this fashion. But it is not illegal for me to carry an unregistered weapon, and it is also not illegal for someone to let me borrow a weapon to OC.

Can I ask how many of the stolen weapons that you have recovered were being open carried by the individual?

Wrong on so many levels. You are intrepreting 12031(e) too tightly. There are so many other factors that come into play in these situations. I wouldn't expect someone without extensive training and experience to know all the ins & outs of police work. You can't get that from just reading a penal code.

THAT is what 12031(e) says you can do, perhaps it is you who is looking at it to loosely. It specifically says you are allowed to check the weapon for its loaded status. IF it is not loaded you have no further grounds to detain anyone. Unfortunately, all the extensive training and experience you have is still bound by the PC codes in effect.


Wishing it to be so, doesn't make it that way. I see many OC supporters repeatedly claim we can't run serial numbers. Get used to it - WE CAN and it is upheld daily in courts throughout the state


Please tell me what code gives you the right to run a serial number of a law abiding open carrier? Having a firearm is generally not unlawful, what probable cause or reasonable articulable suspicion are you using to feel you are correct and can run the serial number?


I don't think most of us care, but a lot of us think it is tactically stupid and many people who OC don't possess the needed good judgement to act properly in a fast evolving situation.

What does any of that have to do with the oath you took to up hold the constitution, you think it is tactically stupid, therefore you feel we shouldn't be allowed to do it??

Many highly trained individuals find themselves uncapable of reacting appropriately, let alone the high school dropout who clears a NICS check and can afford to but a gun & holster. Many law enforcement officers change professions once they face down a life threatening situation

And some highly trained individuals who make it through the tests and evaluations end up shooting someone when it wasn't justified.

Just because someone isn't highly trained (POST academy), doesn't mean that they are not capable of acting appropriately in a fast evolving situation.

Now graduating high school is a must before someone should be able to own a weapon??

If you are legally open carrying, you can relax. We will check you out for many reasons, not just OC, and if you're legit, you'll be on your way. For many reasons, I'm not going to discuss details on tactics, probable cause and the search & seizure guidelines. Just remember, everything we do on a daily basis is reviewed at many levels before it gets to court, and then at the various levels of the courts.

Why do you feel that someone needs to be checked out on many reasons if they happen to be OC'ing a weapon. OC is not illegal.

If I am legit to start with, and my weapon is found to be unloaded why should I have to worry that you are still going to check me out on many other reasons.?

Ron-Solo,

Would you stop a woman on the street with a stroller to determine if the child is hers, or to ensure she has not kidnapped the child?

Would you stop a women walking down the street with a bag of groceries to determine if she purchased them, and to ensure she didn't shoplift them??

[camsoup]

You are completely wrong. If, during the legal inspection of the firearm I note in plain view the tape covering the area of the pistol which, through my training and experience, I know is the area containing the weapon's serial number, you are in clear violation of the title of this thread...537e(a)PC and thus subject to arrest. Incident to arrest I can conduct a search of your person and the weapon, which, as part of the crime, becomes evidence.

While not illegal to have a non-registered handgun, or necessarily someone else's handgun, if the facts and circumstances would lead a reasonable person to believe that you covered the serial number to avoid it being seen, no owner or legal possession of the pistol can be established through investigation, you could be arrested for reasonable cause possession of stolen property. Read 836PC. This is done all the time related to vehicle theft and is an established legal practice.

Which area would that be on a glock 34? How about on a S&W 686? Where on a ruger P95?, a glock 17, a Taurus tracker, a Browning buck mark??

My point is, with no amount of training or experience is any one person going to know where the serial number is on every type/brand of firearm you may encounter....

537e(a)PC lets you arrest someone if they have covered the serial number, what tool does a law abiding citizen have from preventing you from running an illegal check of the serial number in a 12031(e) situation.

Furthermore, a local bay area officer (Sunnyvale PD) just recently used a serial number check to try to identify the person they were detaining for a 12031(e) check.....

CA has no stop and identify law, the weapon was found to be unloaded, yet when the person would not show ID(which he had no legal requirement to do so), the officer then took possession of the firearm a second time and ran the serial number to ID the suspect......unreasonable search and seizure??

[camsoup]

On the other note, doesn't LEO have a duty to check to see if the firearms was loaded or not?

1. If semiauto without a magazine, there is a possibility that the chamber could be loaded. Although the owner claimed that the firearms is not loaded, how would the LEO know without inspecting it?

2. For revolvers, it is hard to see if it was loaded or not by just looking, especially if it is in the holster. Can LEO not check it?

Thought I would just ask since I left patrol assignment in 1994, and I was not very familiar with open carry issues.

Actually no, an officer has no duty to inspect the weapon, the can ask to inspect it if they would like. There are not required to perform 12031(e) checks, its up to the officer weather they want to conduct the check or not.

[camsoup]

Perhaps this section may help clarify some things for you:




833.5. (a) P.C.: In addition to any other detention permitted by law, if
a peace officer has reasonable cause to believe that a person has a
firearm or other deadly weapon with him or her in violation of any
provision of law relating to firearms or deadly weapons the peace
officer may detain that person to determine whether a crime relating
to firearms or deadly weapons has been committed. (This is where 537(e) P.C. kicks in, and establishes the probable cause.)
For purposes of this section "reasonable cause to detain" requires
that the circumstances known or apparent to the officer must include
specific and articulable facts causing him or her to suspect that
some offense relating to firearms or deadly weapons has taken place
or is occurring or is about to occur and that the person he or she
intends to detain is involved in that offense. (The tape covering the serial number is the physical evidence for the element of this crime.)The circumstances must be such as would cause any reasonable peace officer in like
position, drawing when appropriate on his or her training and
experience, to suspect the same offense and the same involvement by
the person in question.
(b) Incident to any detention permitted pursuant to subdivision
(a), a peace officer may conduct a limited search of the person for
firearms or weapons if the peace officer reasonably concludes that
the person detained may be armed and presently dangerous to the peace
officer or others. Any firearm or weapon seized pursuant to a valid
detention or search pursuant to this section shall be admissible in
evidence in any proceeding for any purpose permitted by law.
(c) This section shall not be construed to otherwise limit the
authority of a peace officer to detain any person or to make an
arrest based on reasonable cause.
(d) This section shall not be construed to permit a peace officer
to conduct a detention or search of any person at the person's
residence or place of business absent a search warrant or other
reasonable cause to detain or search.
(e) If a firearm or weapon is seized pursuant to this section and
the person from whom it was seized owned the firearm or weapon and is
convicted of a violation of any offense relating to the possession
of such firearm or weapon, the court shall order the firearm or
weapon to be deemed a nuisance and disposed of in the manner provided
by Section 12028.

Just because I am walking down the street with my firearm holstered, it does not give the officer reason to believe that a crime has been, is occurring or is about to occur. With the exception of 12031, pending a 12031(e) check.

[Fire in the Hole]

The point I'm trying to illustrate is that what begins with a legitimate 12031(e) check. Then during the check, the officer observes in plain view that teh serial number has been either covered, or obliterated. Now a whole new set of rules attach for the 537(e) crime. The officer has a reasonable suspicion that another crime may have been committed, and can legally run that serial number. So the rungs of the ladder are such: The 12031(e) check lead to a 537(e) crime, which may take the officer up the ladder a couple of more rungs, to possession of stolen property etc. Or the ladder may stop here, after no other crime is suspected, or apparent. Each new crime ("rung")brings in a new or different set of rules into the mix.

[camsoup]

The point I'm trying to illustrate is that what begins with a legitimate 12031(e) check. Then during the check, the officer observes in plain view that teh serial number has been either covered, or obliterated. Now a whole new set of rules attach for the 537(e) crime. The officer has a reasonable suspicion that another crime may have been committed, and can legally run that serial number. So the rungs of the ladder are such: The 12031(e) check lead to a 537(e) crime, which may take the officer up the ladder a couple of more rungs, to possession of stolen property etc. Or the ladder may stop here, after no other crime is suspected, or apparent. Each new crime ("rung")brings in a new or different set of rules into the mix.

I understand that. Now lets get away from the covered serial number for just a moment.....

What I am unable to understand is, that if an officer checks the weapon for an 12031 (e) and it is found to be unloaded, why does he/she feel the need to "step up another rung" and continue with a serial number check. If the weapon is found to be unloaded during the (e) check, what probable cause does the officer have for any other crime?

[retired]

Ron-Solo,

Would you stop a woman on the street with a stroller to determine if the child is hers, or to ensure she has not kidnapped the child?

Would you stop a women walking down the street with a bag of groceries to determine if she purchased them, and to ensure she didn't shoplift them??

camsoup, I'll let Ron-Solo respond to the majority of your comments, but I will address those above. Knock off the sarcasm.