CBP off-duty approved firearms.

[raynman83]

Thank you for the clarification. I wasn't aware some agencies are limited by law in what they can carry.

[L-2]

Post 31,
I didn't read or interpret anything said in this thread where agencies are limited by law as to what can be carried (by employees of any particular agency).

My head is spinning when words like "classification" and "authority" are differentiated and defined. At this point, for me, the thread has drifted off from the OP's initial concern, whatever that was, and didn't appear to be California-specific.

There are various what-ifs built into this thread, but not specifically asked.
-The OP resigns from his current LE department and won't be legal to carry in California without any other form of CCW.
-The OP later graduates from FLETC, but where will he be assigned? Calif.?
-The OP is then sworn, but does he have to carry off-duty? (I don't think so.)
-The OP is off-duty, but if he does decide to carry, does it have to be the issued G19Gen5? (I don't think so.)
-The OP is off-duty, carrying a personally-owned gun and gets into a shooting. To what extent does his union/employer provide any legal support? (This, I don't quite understand how the actual firearm used makes a difference and what any differences might be.)
-Will it somehow matter if the OP is a probationary employee until a certain time/date has elapsed and will that matter if getting into a shooting using a personally owned gun? (I don't know, but there could be personal time off needed for any legalities relating to a shooting, off-duty, using a gun other than what was issued.)
-Why does a personally-owned gun somehow make a difference vs. a Federal agency-owned gun? (I don't know.)

I'm just thinking out loud here and I don't even want anybody to answer these questions which may relate only to the OP and not anybody else.

[southerncal714]

no, not CBP. I am a fed LEO for a different agency. i thought you were talking about law and not a specific agency policy.
we can carry per HR 218, but you do so on our own with no expectation of coverage from the agency. we do not have a policy restricting the number of rounds in the firearm we choose to carry.
interesting policy. is that nation wide or just for officers in CA? can Texas posted officers carry standard because Texas has no magazine restrictions, how about New York, are they limited to 7 rounds now with that SAFE act?

while LEOSA does not cover magazine capacity the state of CA does exempt LEO's from the magazine restrictions.


a CBP officer can buy standard capacity mags and have them shipped straight to their home, i am surprised your agency would restrict magazine capacity for CA officers.

I’m guessing you are with a federal agency with very limited law enforcement authority, such as Bureau of Prisons (BOP), if your ability to carry off duty is ONLY due HR218 and you’re on your own if you do get involved in a shooting. BOP is pretty much the only agency I can think of that attends FLETC and did not have the agency approved authority for 24/7 carry *prior* to the passage of HR218**. CBP (and legacy INS and USCS inspectors) had 24/7 carry authority prior to the passage of HR218. **There are some folks who are "force protection" for some agencies and have the title "police officer" AND who attend UPTP, but those numbers pale in comparison to the BoP folks that fall under the category of having a FLEO status and attended FLETC, but only can carry due to LEOSA.

With all the litigation happy attorneys out there, it definitely can give someone a pause knowing that if they carry and an incident occurs they are on their own.

There is something to be said for agencies that allow agents/officers to carry off duty on their creds (with a possibility that that agency will back you) and NOT due strictly to HR218, where the agency has no choice, but at the same time tells you upfront you’re on your own.

[raynman83]

The concept of a "Federal Agent" I think is separate from policy. Federal Law Enforcement should be able to carry a weapon, regardless of weapon, due to the fact that they are a federal agent...now whether they can carry on or off duty depends upon agency policy for duty. For instance i know CBP can carry on airplanes. Im not CBP so i can't say if it's only in the line of duty, but some federal agencies allow carry on airplanes regardless of duty. That seems more dictated by policy.

Now the policy concept is the crux in my mind of the issue. For some (my agency) we can carry anything. But policy is very strict. We can only carry approved weapons (certain guns (there is a short list) we qualify on), or else if we get into a shooting we are considered out of policy. The shoot may be a good shoot and may be adjudicated as such but the department will not accept any responsibility. I thought that was the OP question.

HR218 i thought was only for retired LE. Pardon my ignorance if this was not the case. My agency doesn't have "off duty" status so it's a non-issue.

[raynman83]

Also, on duty (at the office or in a work capacity of any sort) we are required to carry a department approved weapon.

[southerncal714]

In terms of the word "federal agent" that is strictly verbiage which is what people associate with 1811 series Special Agents, who have all had (regardless of agency) 24/7 carry PRIOR to the passage of HR218/LEOSA. The only folks in the fed gov with the actual title of "federal agent" are the guys within the Department of Energy who transport nukes (they are not 1811's), and for everyone else it is just an unofficial title of sorts just like "Special Agent". As a side note, for special agents although your creds say Special Agent, your SF50 actually lists your job title as Criminal Investigator.

There are folks who have "Federal LEO" status, but prior to HR218, did not have agency authority to carry off-duty. The folks who come to mind that fall under this are Bureau of Prisons, Veterans Affairs, "DoD" Police and Postal Police (not to be confused with Postal Inspectors). These same folks can't carry on a plane off-duty as their authority to carry when not working is ONLY due to HR218, versus Special Agents (HSI, FBI, USSS, ATF, OIG etc., CBP Officers, USSS UD, US Capitol Police, etc. who had 24/7 carry authority granted by their agency PRIOR to the passage of HR218/LEOSA.

Also some folks might not be aware there is a significant difference in the level of even basic training some folks receive at FLETC (Federal Law Enforcement Training Center). For example, Bureau of Prisons folks basic training is only THREE WEEKS, where 1811's are at Glynco, GA for months for CITP and the agency add-on (I think IRS-CI agents have one of the longest add-on's). The the Uniformed Police Training Program (UPTP) for folks like USSS UD and Capitol Police is lengthy as well. And then they have an agency specific add-on after it.

The concept of a "Federal Agent" I think is separate from policy. Federal Law Enforcement should be able to carry a weapon, regardless of weapon, due to the fact that they are a federal agent...now whether they can carry on or off duty depends upon agency policy for duty. For instance i know CBP can carry on airplanes. Im not CBP so i can't say if it's only in the line of duty, but some federal agencies allow carry on airplanes regardless of duty. That seems more dictated by policy.

Now the policy concept is the crux in my mind of the issue. For some (my agency) we can carry anything. But policy is very strict. We can only carry approved weapons (certain guns (there is a short list) we qualify on), or else if we get into a shooting we are considered out of policy. The shoot may be a good shoot and may be adjudicated as such but the department will not accept any responsibility. I thought that was the OP question.

HR218 i thought was only for retired LE. Pardon my ignorance if this was not the case. My agency doesn't have "off duty" status so it's a non-issue.

[raynman83]

Yea i figured it was different for Federal LEOs who were not 1811s. But OP was for CBP. Aren't CBP agents 1811s?

Also, i had no idea HR218 wasnt just for retirees. Thanks for the discussion. I learn new things every day.

[southerncal714]

CBP Officers are not 1811's. The only 1811's within CBP are Special Agents with their OPR (Internal Affairs). CBP Officers fall under series 1895 and although they are not 1811's they have been authorized by their agency to carry 24/7 before HR218/LEOSA was signed into law. FLEO's whose authority to carry off duty is based strictly on HR218 also can not flyed armed off duty. Generally this is the case for FLEO's who have limited law enforcement authority (even on duty) such as Bureau of Prisons employees. Literally everyone who works for the BoP is technically considered a FLEO with LE retirement, even if their job title isn't correctional officer. On the flip side, Veterans Affairs Police and many of the "force protection" folks from various agencies with "police officer" titles do not receive the "6c/12d" LE retirement and only gained the ability to carry off-duty AFTER the passage of HR218/LEOSA. And if you are involved in an off-duty incident with one of those agencies, you're on your own.

Yea i figured it was different for Federal LEOs who were not 1811s. But OP was for CBP. Aren't CBP agents 1811s?

Also, i had no idea HR218 wasnt just for retirees. Thanks for the discussion. I learn new things every day.