Sit outside while children are being shot

[1911su16b870]

Active Killer Response Training changed 1999 after Columbine.

Waiting for the official TX DPS report. Current questions I have:

Who had eyes in the classroom from outside windows?

If shots were being heard with officers on scene in the hallway...why didn't one of them get/enter through windows+doors into that class room and stop the killing (regardless of the IC/command to stand by)?

[badfish71]

Yes, and then multiply the confusion many-fold when dealing with uneducated, untrained and no balls supervision. IMHO, if I was onscene there and regardless of who was in charge in this incident, I would have gathered a team and made entry. I would handle the fallout over that decision later but to standby and do nothing is unacceptable.

[Escalado]

I'm dating myself, but when my Academy Class (here in CA) was tested on the active shooter scenario anyone that entered the building when shots were heard failed the scenario exam.

Anyone that stood outside flabbergasted whether or not they knew what they hell they were doing passed the active shooter exam.

All military vets failed with about 1/2 the rest of the class.

We all had to do it again and just stand out side and ramble all of the stuff we would do and call for help but never enter the building regardless of the sounds coming from inside.

Active Shooter has never been a POST scenario test. That sounds like a test created and proctored by your specific agency. However there is a critical incident scenario which is a shots fired, but not an active shooter. Two different calls with different responses.

[Tyke8319]

Active Killer Response Training changed 1999 after Columbine.

Waiting for the official TX DPS report. Current questions I have:

Who had eyes in the classroom from outside windows?

If shots were being heard with officers on scene in the hallway...why didn't one of them get/enter through windows+doors into that class room and stop the killing (regardless of the IC/command to stand by)?

1. Which classroom? There are 9 adjoining buildings. School windows have high UV reflective glass to reduce sun light intrusion. With approx 475 students there are multiple classrooms.
2. Were shots being fired when I arrived?
3. Do know where to respond to? What intelligence was provided.. if any?
4. Do I know the interior of the complex?
5. Is it a hostage of active shooter situation?
6. How many shooters are there?
7. What weapons do they have?
8. What weapons are available to me?
9. Do I have confidence in the training I've been provided to make a positive and effective decision and/or outcome?
10. If I confront the shooter(s) do I run the risk of hitting others?
11. Will all my shots hit center mass?
12. Is the AH exiting with others exiting the buildings?
The mental list is unending..........

Now...you have 3 seconds to answer all these (and more) while your running to the building with your adrenaline is in full mode the building.

OK...take 5 seconds......cause that's all the time you have. And you have to be correct; no mistakes. Make a mistake in your judgement and you will be headline news for months to come...not to mention mental and emotional burden you'll carry.

Until you've been confronted with a this sort of scenario don't delude yourself into thinking your actions will be 100% correct. Even in police work there is the "fog of war". Running to the sound of guns is what we do. But put kids in the mix and the horrible consequences can be immense.

There is no right way to engage an active shooter because every incident is different and calls for a different response mode. What ever way is chosen, you better be lucky, cause being good doesn't always cut it.

[SharedShots]

The "go to hell plan"

Do they teach that anymore? They used to. It was the first thing that entered your mind because it might be needed the next instant. The first guy arrives and when the second one shows up it takes seconds to agree.

One thing came to mind:

Have you ever heard of a firefighter not going into a burning building when people inside are screaming for help? Could anyone imagine were the school on fire and kids were calling for help that Firefighters would do anything but break down doors in any way possible to gain entry, knowing that it takes only one flashover event to kill them? They don't know what is inside, they have no idea if there is a can of gasoline boiling, they don't know any of it, they go inside knowing the building could collapse.

There is always a go to hell plan, hell showed up. There are always the hundreds of things to think about, right until the kids (in this case) start dying.

Sometimes, the over analyzed, scientific approach concocted in a seminar, pulled out of thin air because what used to be a gun fight is now called a highly kinetic lethal environment simply can't replace immediate action thinking because the wondering about what might go wrong if you're wrong has already gone wrong.

And I'm really sorry if what appears on some headline even comes into your mind, you are thinking about the wrong sht.





.

[1911su16b870]

1. Which classroom? There are 9 adjoining buildings. School windows have high UV reflective glass to reduce sun light intrusion. With approx 475 students there are multiple classrooms.
2. Were shots being fired when I arrived?
3. Do know where to respond to? What intelligence was provided.. if any?
4. Do I know the interior of the complex?
5. Is it a hostage of active shooter situation?
6. How many shooters are there?
7. What weapons do they have?
8. What weapons are available to me?
9. Do I have confidence in the training I've been provided to make a positive and effective decision and/or outcome?
10. If I confront the shooter(s) do I run the risk of hitting others?
11. Will all my shots hit center mass?
12. Is the AH exiting with others exiting the buildings?
The mental list is unending..........

Now...you have 3 seconds to answer all these (and more) while your running to the building with your adrenaline is in full mode the building.

OK...take 5 seconds......cause that's all the time you have. And you have to be correct; no mistakes. Make a mistake in your judgement and you will be headline news for months to come...not to mention mental and emotional burden you'll carry.

Until you've been confronted with a this sort of scenario don't delude yourself into thinking your actions will be 100% correct. Even in police work there is the "fog of war". Running to the sound of guns is what we do. But put kids in the mix and the horrible consequences can be immense.

There is no right way to engage an active shooter because every incident is different and calls for a different response mode. What ever way is chosen, you better be lucky, cause being good doesn't always cut it.

You have some great questions and comments, which is why I am waiting on the official AAR. You can go to street view of Robb Elementary and answer the buildings/windows question as I have done.

My post's key stone question is...shots fired while officers on site...the response is simple and should take less than 1 second...identify/direction, close with and stop.

[pacrat]

You have some great questions and comments, which is why I am waiting on the official AAR.

In this horrible incident. I'm beginning to seriously doubt that any AAR is ever going to describe factual events of that sad day.

The various responders have already presented 14 different stories of events.

Now the School Chief JUST YESTERDAY, claimed he ran to the gunfire. And personally tried over 20 different keys in order to gain entry to the classroom . He also claimed he intentionally left his radio at his office, so he could get on site quicker. And didn't even know that he was supposedly in command.


Curious that the 4 guys from BORTAC that finally executed the entry and did what was needed. Made no mention of him doing any such thing. And they said, they got a "master key" from the friggen janitor. After disobeying his orders to stand down.

Who ya gonna believe? Who can you believe? Who is telling the truth? Who is in CYA mode?

Will we the public ever really know?

Is anybody really stupid enough to believe the "Warren Report"?

[Tyke8319]

In this horrible incident. I'm beginning to seriously doubt that any AAR is ever going to describe factual events of that sad day.

The various responders have already presented 14 different stories of events.

How many people were on scene??? That's the number of interpretations you'll get.

Now the School Chief JUST YESTERDAY, claimed he ran to the gunfire. And personally tried over 20 different keys in order to gain entry to the classroom . He also claimed he intentionally left his radio at his office, so he could get on site quicker. And didn't even know that he was supposedly in command.


So he tried the keys he had. Maybe the "janitor" was in the area at the time!!

Curious that the 4 guys from BORTAC that finally executed the entry and did what was needed. Made no mention of him doing any such thing. And they said, they got a "master key" from the friggen janitor. After disobeying his orders to stand down.

So they were able to acquire a master key. Get a grip! You weren't there! You have NO idea what transpired...when or how.


Who ya gonna believe? Who can you believe? Who is telling the truth? Who is in CYA mode?

WRONG! Too many witnesses there to falsify anything.

Will we the public ever really know?

Is anybody really stupid enough to believe the "Warren Report"?

The events will be as factual as they can get...and REAL world...not Hollywood or TV drama. They'll be cold and real. With all the mistakes that humans make.

Until you been confronted with a critical incident, and I mean life and death you have no right to judge (lest you be judged).

There are some who will never believe the truth because it doesn't fit their narrative no matter how blatantly obvious the truth is....

Wait till the facts are in before you go spouting off...

[yzErnie]

Wait till the facts are in before you go spouting off...

pacrat is a supporter of LE. He is seeing the events that happened through a lay person's eyes. Go easy on him. lol


The known facts at this time are...

1. There was an active shooter
2. There were shots being fired
3. Kids and an adult were being murdered
4. For an inordinate amount of time nobody made entry while #3 was happening
5. The BP team said enough and made entry
6. Their seek and destroy eliminated the vermin
7. At this point in time the "Police Chief's" truthfulness and fortitude is suspect

I designed and taught our Active Shooter protocols. I taught the entire department these protocols before the program got sent to our training center, which IMO is not the proper location for this training to be conducted. I used real schools in our communities, with real school teachers and admin staff who wanted to participate present and their numbers of attendance were mind boggling low. I included the hose draggers, ambulance companies, city and county divisions and even the community into the training. There is no time to fiddle f**k around when these things happen, ACT.

I realize the AAR may or may not reveal all relevant facts. The bottom line for me when these kinds of things are happening you HAVE to act, regardless of who is in charge.

[Tyke8319]

^^^
Copy all...
30 years of being "second guessed" and the PTSD sneaks back up on me. Makes me

[yzErnie]

^^^
Copy all...
30 years of being "second guessed" and the PTSD sneaks back up on me. Makes me

I get it.

This may sound odd to some here but...I enjoyed the challenge of being second guessed by my superiors. Because then, they would ask me for comments about the training and the actions needed. I would always preface my reply(s) with this, "You asked me a question, do you want me to tell you the truth or do you want me to lie to you". We all know what their answer would be so that gave me the opportunity to be brutally honest with them. Most took it as an afront to their manhood/womanhood but they knew I was right with my training and formats for the training. Shame on them for not being smart enough to do their own research before asking me anything related to the training. Second guess me bosses, this will be fun!!!!

[pacrat]

I suppose I learned somewhere along in my 30 years as a LEO (and after embarrassing myself on occasion with authoritative opinions) not to judge anything until all the facts were in or unless I was a witness or participant in an event.
I'm still standing by till the fat lady sings before I form an opinion as to the circumstances surrounding the events at Uvalde, TX.

That was 10 days ago. So please share just who you consider the "FAT LADY" to be? Because if she happens to be TDPS. Who was/is in charge of the investigation. She sang the day before you made that statement. https://www.cbsnews.com/dfw/news/liv...investigation/

Texas DPS on Uvalde shooting: 'It was the wrong decision,' not to breach classroom

Or do you consider the FAT LADY to be Chief Pete Arredondo? Who contradicted literally everything that every other, of the over 100 officers on site, and TDPS, said concerning his actions?

Wait till the facts are in before you go spouting off...

Since when is asking questions considered "spouting off"?

I ask, WHO'S FACTS can WE believe? The "facts" presented by the mother who was berating cops for standing around, doing nothing. While children were dying. Who was handcuffed by US Marshals and led away for "obstructing"... [caught on camera and witnessed by dozens of other parents] ... Which later, after her release by the Marshals, climbed over the back fence of Robb Elementary School and got her 2 daughters out herself.

Or the Marshals Service, who said "they did no such thing"?

How about 2 sets of irrefutable KNOWN FACTS.

Parkland ... 4 yrs ago. Attack lasted 7 minutes, entry to exit of shooter. https://www.history.com/this-day-in-...chool-shooting

Uvalde ... 3 wks ago. Attack lasted 70 minutes, first 911 call to death of shooter.

Parkland ... One cop did nothing, for those 7 min.

Uvalde ... Over 100 cops did nothing, for those 70 min.

Until 4 did.

Hats off to the valiant BORTAC agents who finally put a stop to the insane carnage. [yes pun intended]

https://twitter.com/BillFOXLA/status...illing-shooter

[1911su16b870]

...The bottom line for me when these kinds of things are happening you HAVE to act, regardless of who is in charge.

^YES!!! Testify Brother!

[1911su16b870]

CNN...so just know... IMO a good editorial piece.

First I have learned in a news interview they were busting out windows and extracting kids. Some footage of the day also showed this.

[Che762x39]

Interesting thread.

LE did a great job on the Duncanville, TX Summer Camp, two days ago. Bad Guy down and no innocents injured.

In the LE Community we have "heroes and zeroes" and I always encourage everyone to be a "hero".