Question about home defense

[esy]

What is the first thing an attorney is going to tell you? Don't say a word to anyone about this. You've already called the police they are on the way when you call the attorney who tells you to shut up.

As you correctly surmised you're the victim, but if you aren't talking on advise from your attorney how is anyone going to know that? And by this time it is possible that the person you just pointed the gun at is reporting he was assaulted at your address, and now you don't want to speak without your attorney. See where is could end up? Calling an attorney is all well and fine when you need one, but being the victim you probably don't need one. I don't think I've ever arrested a victim, I have arrested several people who pretended to be victims though.

What P5Ret is essentially getting at is tell your story. That's all you need to do. Don't embellish, don't fudge, don't fib. Just tell your story. Let the Peace Officers, investigators, detectives, etc., etc. handle everything else.

Once questioning becomes begin to take another form because maybe you're lying, then I'd recommend an attorney.

[Cortelli]

What is the first thing an attorney is going to tell you? Don't say a word to anyone about this. You've already called the police they are on the way when you call the attorney who tells you to shut up.

As you correctly surmised you're the victim, but if you aren't talking on advise from your attorney how is anyone going to know that? And by this time it is possible that the person you just pointed the gun at is reporting he was assaulted at your address, and now you don't want to speak without your attorney. See where is could end up? Calling an attorney is all well and fine when you need one, but being the victim you probably don't need one. I don't think I've ever arrested a victim, I have arrested several people who pretended to be victims though.

With a good attorney or advice or knowledge about the law of self defense I might not be silent; but I might be circumspect in what I say.

I am stealing from Andrew Branca (whose website was linked above).

But I might say: "He broke into my house; I feared for my life and the lives of my [wife / family]; look here - this is where he broke the lock / door / window; here is the broken glass that should be noted; here is a dirty footprint when he advanced towards my closed bedroom door; I told him I had a gun and he needed to leave and he did; come look at the bushes that he broke through and damaged while escaping my home after I challenged him; maybe he lost a knife or other weapon when he jumped the fence; also note that my back gate is open - I never leave it open and I suspect he came into the yard through that gate. I am ready to sign a complaint and I am really shaken up; I need to be with my wife and to get myself together. I am ready to cooperate fully, but please understand that this is a serious, life-threatening experience; and I need to speak with counsel before I say anything more about the incident given that it could have ended with much greater consequences."

Again stealing from Ayoob / Branca - I might not want to adopt a posture of name, rank, serial number - I also might not want to pour out everything that I perceived at the time or that passed through my mind. Perhaps it's less important when I haven't shot at someone; but maybe it's important down the road that any evidence of what happened (and what I am reporting) is noted in the initial officers report.

[DEFCON ZERO]

OP there is no lawful reason for your firearm to be taken, nor will there be an investigation where you would be a suspect. You would be listed as a victim in the burglary report, along with your statement on what happened. Personally I would ask you for a written statement to attach to the report in your words.

I'm thinking a lot of the calls from citizens who just pulled a gun to scare someone off also involve a few reasons why the cops would want to gather up any guns at the scene.

Guy who pulled the gun is drunk, high, crazy, lying about the other guy being a stranger, lying about whose gun it is, etc.

[Cortelli]

Have you taken any courses on self defense? Usually the instructors will tell you if your going to meet the intruder with a weapon in hand then the phone better be on you and connected to 911.

Or your spouse will be on the phone with 911.

I suggest you get some training to get yourself up to speed. You have the right ideas but in the wrong order.

There are quite a few books you can read and learn this but a competent instructor is better resource of info.

I have not taken a live course on the law of self defense. I have read numerous sources. I am thinking of taking Andrew Branca's Law of Self Defense Level 1 when he is in Sacramento in Februrary. I have ordered (Labor Day Special!) his DVD set with California supplement and expect to receive it in the next week - I'll review pretty quickly thereafter. I have read his book (and supplements, and Ayoob's "Gravest Extreme" and Ayoob's 2014 update - the title escapes me). I am personally interested in the law, and the reality, around the use of force - I think it is an interesting aspect of law.

I am focusing my responses on OP's scenario - someone breaks into his home unlawfully; he scares the intruder off with the threat of lethal force; what happens next with police - will there be a report? what will the consequences be? My position has been that there must be a report, and it had best come from OP.

[P5Ret]

I'm thinking a lot of the calls from citizens who just pulled a gun to scare someone off also involve a few reasons why the cops would want to gather up any guns at the scene.

Guy who pulled the gun is drunk, high, crazy, lying about the other guy being a stranger, lying about whose gun it is, etc.

So in your vast experience tell us all what lawful authority there is to "gather up any guns at the scene" in the OP scenario? What you think, has no support in law, and is really not relevant.

[71MUSTY]

So, OP, Guy breaks into your house, you arm yourself and shout "I have a gun leave now." Guy complies.

You go back to bed because you fear if you call LEO's they will take your gun.

Guy then breaks into house of 87 year old down the street and commits mayhem.

Or

For some other posters.

Guy breaks into your house, you arm yourself and shout "I have a gun leave now." Guy complies.

You call LEO's, but refuse to tell them anything without council...

Or

You tell them there was a break in but the guy left, then refuse to say anything more without council.

Personally I'm calling LEO's, giving them a brief summary of events and as good of a description as I can. "Guy broke into my house, I scared him off, He is wearing jean and a red shirt and headed north."

Then I can go quiet until I get council.

[SoCalDep]

A lot of the advice given here is simply ignorant and bad.

If you are this worried about potential outcomes, talk to a lawyer NOW. Get your questions answered by someone experienced in these matters who can talk from a position of knowledge.

I will say that following some of the above advice over what is about the most cut-and-dry self defense use of a firearm (home defense) will have any decent cop wondering where the dope is that the guy came to rip or who you've pissed off and where his dead body may be. Talk to a lawyer if you have questions. My guess is that with regard to this scenario a good lawyer will put your mind at ease.

[JeffSD]

There aren't a lot of stories about people who faced down someone in their home but did not end up shooting. I was only curious about how the police would handle this situation, and what the potential fallout might be for the homeowner.

I asked here because most likely LEO would know how this would go down, and would be able to talk about it and offer advice as to how a homeowner should deal with that situation.

For me personally, calling the police is a given. First of all, no one can get in this house without tripping our alarm system. At night it is set to go off instantly. Our monitoring service will be calling within seconds and if we didn't call the police they would. It's what happens after that call that I was curious about.

I feel like I've been given a lot of great answers and suggestions in this thread, so thank you to everyone that has contributed thus far!

[P5Ret]

There aren't a lot of stories about people who faced down someone in their home but did not end up shooting. I was only curious about how the police would handle this situation, and what the potential fallout might be for the homeowner.

I asked here because most likely LEO would know how this would go down, and would be able to talk about it and offer advice as to how a homeowner should deal with that situation.

For me personally, calling the police is a given. First of all, no one can get in this house without tripping our alarm system. At night it is set to go off instantly. Our monitoring service will be calling within seconds and if we didn't call the police they would. It's what happens after that call that I was curious about.

I feel like I've been given a lot of great answers and suggestions in this thread, so thank you to everyone that has contributed thus far!

The problem is that some of the advise that came from your question was given by people who are not now, nor have ever been in any LE capacity whatsoever.

[tsnoforn]

Really? "if you have to draw you have to shoot" where exactly did you pickup that pearl of wisdom? That is simply one of the most asinine things I have ever heard.



Many time's bad guys suddenly have a change of heart when faced with greater force, and leave quickly, but your thought is that it left the holster I now have to shoot. Perhaps you should choose your words a bit more carefully when offering advise.

It is a very good piece of advice from one of the best self-defense with a gun guys (and a multiple gunfight survivor)

I am the most peace loving and affable person I know. But if I draw a gun there is about a 99 percent chance I am going to use it. I think the philosophy here is, dont draw it unless you are going to use it.

Remember, for most of us civilians, our gun is in our hand already, the draw/no draw decision is not relevant. In that case, if I aim it, I fire it.

And lastly, as stated before, if someone is in my home and does not depart upon hearing movement in the house, the die is cast. I am going to shoot them Mozambique and call my lawyer.


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[tsnoforn]

Question about home defense

Hypothetical: Someone broke into my home; I heard that someone breaking in (now "him"), confronted him with a weapon, and ordered him to leave. He did. I think I am the victim of a burglary, breaking and entering, or trespassing at least; maybe assault / ADW.



I'm the victim of a crime, and I've used a weapon (whether he saw it or not) in defending myself. I am damn sure going to contact local LEA and then my insurers / service providers / attorneys. I'd rather not have some dude call 911 before me saying he mistakenly crossed a front / back yard and a crazy dude confronted him with a firearm - and the crazy dude lives at 123 Main St, etc.



IMHO, failing to do so because "I didn't shoot" is not a good strategy.



I am answering in this thread because this forum is open to non-LEOs who are civil. I'm not trolling, being disrespectful, or otherwise trying to cause any disruption. I welcome the perspective of of LEOs and others who post in threads on this forum.



Genuine question - not sh*t-stirring: Why do you think you should wait to contact any outside provider unless (1) you fired your firearm; (2) you maybe used deadly force without firing your firearm; (3) you are arrested; or (4) the reporting officer chooses to see you as complainant / victim / something else?



I think the better course of action is to have lots of folks hear your side right up front, with your view of the situation (even if very limited and circumspect), before things get down the road. And though I am not a LEO as I've said, I can't imagine my agency would like to hear that my home was broken into; that I confronted the intruder with a firearm at the ready; that the intruder left as I commanded; and the therefore I figured "no harm no foul" and just went about my business.

I would always call the police first. And state "I heard a man say to kill the kids first." Simply because hunting down someone invading your home is too dangerous for even the most experienced military operator. I would not go looking for him. i would be waiting in as good as cover as possible. It is best to let a pair of trained law enforcememt pros do this job

If they get in your los... Simple, officer he reached behind his back after I told him to leave. He said "I'm going to kill you and pull your kids teeth out with a pair of pliers. I told him to stop and I said "you die tonight (add expletive of your choice)

Then I shot him 6 times.

You did warn him, he did not comply, you begged him not to hurt you he told you he was going to kill you and reached for a weapon.

You are absolved... cause I'm not asking him to leave, I'm not warning him... I'm hitting him with a flashlight and shooting him dead. He's not going to offer an alternative tale


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[Rickrock1]

Just imagine 2 or more invading your home armed. Not much time to start thinking what if.

[P5Ret]

It is a very good piece of advice from one of the best self-defense with a gun guys (and a multiple gunfight survivor)

I am the most peace loving and affable person I know. But if I draw a gun there is about a 99 percent chance I am going to use it. I think the philosophy here is, dont draw it unless you are going to use it.

Remember, for most of us civilians, our gun is in our hand already, the draw/no draw decision is not relevant. In that case, if I aim it, I fire it.

And lastly, as stated before, if someone is in my home and does not depart upon hearing movement in the house, the die is cast. I am going to shoot them Mozambique and call my lawyer.


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And exactly who would that be? Anyone who preaches that if you draw a gun or have it in your hand you HAVE to use it, is a complete fool. Just that statement alone would make most people question the validity of anything he teaches.

While I agree 100% that if you have it in your hand you need to be prepared to use it, I don't think "have to" is even a consideration. I also think you should be prepared in your scenario to spend some time in the shower's with a guy named Bubba, because shooting without identifying an actual threat even in your home may not be as cut and dried as you seem to think it will be.

[tsnoforn]

And exactly who would that be? Anyone who preaches that if you draw a gun or have it in your hand you HAVE to use it, is a complete fool. Just that statement alone would make most people question the validity of anything he teaches.



While I agree 100% that if you have it in your hand you need to be prepared to use it, I don't think "have to" is even a consideration. I also think you should be prepared in your scenario to spend some time in the shower's with a guy named Bubba, because shooting without identifying an actual threat even in your home may not be as cut and dried as you seem to think it will be.

massad ayoob is he. And you're a bit out of context. mr. ayoob states if you pull it you most likely are going to have to use it.

I would believe it. I am a firm believer in the Mantra; noone knows you carry a gun, you walk away if there is trouble, you run if you must. You do everything you can to avoid showing someone a gun. Once you do, the escalation cannot cease. You are then left with the assailant's fight or flight instinct, with more often than not my money being on fight.

You pull a gun, most likely you are going to have to use it.

Next, shoot the guy dead as a doornail, if someone is in my house there are witnesses that will say the assailant did not threaten, but promised to kill us, told me he had a gun and a knife and that I shouted for him not to reach for it.

Also, I live in a castle doctrine state. And I doubt I would move to one that isn't. No duty to retreat, deadly force via perceived threat (it was dark and he did not leave when he found out we were home)

I spend one night in jail while its worked out at the most and most likely none. I am an attorney and know a bunch of really good criminal defense attorneys. So attorney, army vet without a parking ticket, family man and good corporate citizen vs. dead guy. Shot with a revolver or a service automatic loaded with factory ammo that say defense on the box after he told my family he came to cut them up into little pieces.

I'm betting I tell a better story than dead guy. Cause he's dead. Better yet, I didn't go find him, he found me... came after me while reaching for the flamethrower he said he was going to bake me with...


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[tsnoforn]

Just imagine 2 or more invading your home armed. Not much time to start thinking what if.

Exactly, there could be six of them. Killing the first one may even save the lives of the others. But its also why you dont go try to clear your own house.


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