AR Pistols, forward grips, and the CA/ATF laws

[hoodwinked]

Hello all,

I have been doing some research..read many threads and all those ATF "opinion" letters. I still have some questions if anyone considers themselves knowledgable on the subject.

If I get a legal AR pistol (receiver DROS'd as a semi-auto pistol from the beginning) I understand it must be in a 10rd fixed magazine configuration.

Let's say I get two upper receivers for it.....a 5" 9mm upper and a 10" 300 BLK upper. The 10" upper makes the overall length greater than 26" and the 5" upper makes it under 26".

From my understanding, the ATF says anything less than 26" overall length CANNOT have any forward grip (VFG, AFG, handstop,etc). Over 26" long can have one because it's generally considered "non-concealable". However, in my humble opinion ANY forward grip no matter the overall gun length would change the pistol so it's not "intended to be fired with one hand", thus putting me into AOW or SBR territory. Does this sound correct?

The whole forward grip thing feels like a major grey area in the law. Would a simple M-LOK handguard be considered a "grip?"

To add more confusion, CA says a semi auto pistol can have a "second handgrip" as long as its fixed 10rd or less magazine config and NOT be considered an assault weapon. So oddly enough it seems CA gives me more leniency than Federal law.....

I am curious how everyone else is "interpreting" the law. Sorry, but if the ATF has to give their "opinion" on what the law means.....it means our laws are extremely poorly written.

[morrcarr67]

Hello all,

I have been doing some research..read many threads and all those ATF "opinion" letters. I still have some questions if anyone considers themselves knowledgable on the subject.

If I get a legal AR pistol (receiver DROS'd as a semi-auto pistol from the beginning) I understand it must be in a 10rd fixed magazine configuration.

Let's say I get two upper receivers for it.....a 5" 9mm upper and a 10" 300 BLK upper. The 10" upper makes the overall length greater than 26" and the 5" upper makes it under 26".

From my understanding, the ATF says anything less than 26" overall length CANNOT have any forward grip (VFG, AFG, handstop,etc). Over 26" long can have one because it's generally considered "non-concealable". However, in my humble opinion ANY forward grip no matter the overall gun length would change the pistol so it's not "intended to be fired with one hand", thus putting me into AOW or SBR territory. Does this sound correct?

The whole forward grip thing feels like a major grey area in the law. Would a simple M-LOK handguard be considered a "grip?"

To add more confusion, CA says a semi auto pistol can have a "second handgrip" as long as its fixed 10rd or less magazine config and NOT be considered an assault weapon. So oddly enough it seems CA gives me more leniency than Federal law.....

I am curious how everyone else is "interpreting" the law. Sorry, but if the ATF has to give their "opinion" on what the law means.....it means our laws are extremely poorly written.

Are you sure about YOUR set up with a 10" barrel? The reason I ask is that FA had to go with an 11.5" to get over the 26" mark with their XO-26. They did this because with it being over 26" it's considered a Title 1 Other and can have a second grip without triggering the NFA rules.

If you have a Title 1 Pistol (under 26") and want to put a second grip on it you would need to Form 1 it as a Title 2 AOW. Title 2 AOWs are legal to own in CA and the best way to apply for your Form 1 is via the ATF's E-Form system.

Title 2 AOWs must still comply with all of CA's other laws. Including AW laws, so you would need to have one of the new style mag locks installed.

[hoodwinked]

I would have to measure the 10" upper once I get it, but from my estimations online it looked like it would be over 26". I could be wrong.

Thank you for the clarification! Sounds like as long as the lower receiver was originally DROS'd as a pistol (received through PTT) I can make a Title 2 AOW out of it in CA without violating the unsafe handgun laws and as long as I mag lock it, it wont be violating the CA AW laws either.

[edgerly779]

Where are you located junior?

[seaweedsoyboy]

I would have to measure the 10" upper once I get it, but from my estimations online it looked like it would be over 26". I could be wrong.

Thank you for the clarification! Sounds like as long as the lower receiver was originally DROS'd as a pistol (received through PTT) I can make a Title 2 AOW out of it in CA without violating the unsafe handgun laws and as long as I mag lock it, it wont be violating the CA AW laws either.

10" upper will still bring you in at under a 26" OAL.

[Quiet]

Need to comply with both Federal and CA laws.


Under Federal laws/regulations and past Federal court cases...

A firearm with a less than 16" barrel length and a greater than 26" overall length and no shoulder stock is a Title 1 Other.
A Title 1 Other can legally have a vertical forward grip attached to it.

A firearm with a less than 16" rifled barrel length and a less than 26" overall length and no shoulder stock is a Title 1 Handgun.
A Title 1 Handgun can not legally have a vertical forward grip attached to it.
In order to be legal, the Title 1 Handgun must be made into a BATFE approved Title 2 AOW before the vertical forward grip is attached to it.

In order to measure the overall length of a firearm to determine if it is a Title 1 Handgun, Title 1 Other, or Title 2 AOW; if the firearm has an arm stabilizing brace, then it is removed prior to measuring or, if the arm stabilizing brace is permanently attached, then it is folded/collapsed and if it has a non-permanently attached muzzle device, then it is removed.

This is because Title 1 Handgun, Title 1 Other, and Title 2 AOW are not intended to be fired from the shoulder, so it's overall length is measured in the shortest possible fireable configuration (arm brace folded/collapsed or removed).
^Since Title 1 Rifle, Title 1 Shotgun, Title 2 SBR, and Title 2 SBS are intended to be fired from the shoulder; their overall length is measured in the longest possible fireable configuration (stock open/extended).


Under CA laws/regulations...

A firearm with a barrel length of less than 16" is a "handgun".
A firearm with a 16" or greater barrel length and no shoulder stock is an "other" firearm.

A semi-auto pistol that does not have a fixed magazine and has a second handgrip is an assault weapon.
A semi-auto centerfire other firearm that does not have a fixed magazine and has a second handgrip is an assault weapon.
A semi-auto centerfire other firearm that has an overall length of less than 30" is an assault weapon.

CA considers a second handgrip to be any grip or textured surface that can be utilized by the non-trigger handgun to help in controlling the firearm.
CA measures overall length with the firearm in the shortest possible firing configuration and non-permanently attached muzzle device removed.


Therefore, under Federal and CA laws/regulations...

If the firearm is a Title 1 Handgun that is also a semi-auto pistol that does not have a fixed magazine and has a vertical forward grip, then it is an illegal Title 2 AOW and illegal CA assault weapon.
If the firearm is a Title 1 Handgun that is also a semi-auto pistol that has a fixed magazine and has a vertical forward grip, then it is an illegal Title 2 AOW and CA legal pistol.
If the firearm is a Title 1 Handgun that is also a RAW and has a vertical forward grip, then it is an illegal Title 2 AOW and CA legal RAW.

If the firearm is a Title 1 Other that is also a semi-auto pistol that does not have a fixed magazine and has a vertical forward grip, then it is an legal Title 1 Other and illegal CA assault weapon.
If the firearm is a Title 1 Other that is also a semi-auto pistol that has a fixed magazine and has a vertical forward grip, then it is a legal Title 1 Other and CA legal pistol.
If the firearm is a Title 1 Other that is also a RAW and has a vertical forward grip, then it is a legal Title 1 Other and CA legal RAW.

If the firearm is a Title 1 Other that is also a semi-auto centerfire other firearm that does not have a fixed magazine and has a vertical forward grip with an overall length of less than 30", then it is a legal Title 1 Other and illegal CA assault weapon.
If the firearm is a Title 1 Other that is also a semi-auto centerfire other firearm that has a fixed magazine and has a vertical forward grip with an overall length of less than 30", then it is a legal Title 1 Other and illegal CA assault weapon.
If the firearm is a Title 1 Other that is also a semi-auto centerfire other firearm that does not have a fixed magazine and has a vertical forward grip with an overall length of 30" or greater, then it is a legal Title 1 Other and illegal CA assault weapon.
If the firearm is a Title 1 Other that is also a semi-auto centerfire other firearm that has a fixed magazine and has a vertical forward grip with an overall length of 30" or greater, then it is a legal Title 1 Other and legal CA semi-auto centerfire other firearm.

If the firearm is a Title 2 AOW that is also a semi-auto pistol that does not have a fixed magazine and has a vertical forward grip, then it is a legal Title 2 AOW and CA illegal assault weapon.
If the firearm is a Title 2 AOW that is also a semi-auto pistol that has a fixed magazine and has a vertical forward grip, then it is a legal Title 2 AOW and CA legal pistol.
If the firearm is a Title 2 AOW that is also a RAW and has a vertical forward grip, then it is a legal Title 2 AOW and CA legal RAW.

[Quiet]

The whole forward grip thing feels like a major grey area in the law. Would a simple M-LOK handguard be considered a "grip?"

To add more confusion, CA says a semi auto pistol can have a "second handgrip" as long as its fixed 10rd or less magazine config and NOT be considered an assault weapon. So oddly enough it seems CA gives me more leniency than Federal law.....

Under CA laws/regulations...

A "second handgrip" is any grip or textured feature that can be utilized by the non-trigger hand to grip or assist in controlling the firearm.

The standard handguard of an AR15 style firearm meets CA's definition of a "shroud" and a "second handgrip".

[yrs]

From my understanding, the ATF says anything less than 26" overall length CANNOT have any forward grip (VFG, AFG, handstop,etc).

I always thought AFG and handstops are not or do not count as forward grips. Has this been changed recently? Any citations?

However, in my humble opinion ANY forward grip no matter the overall gun length would change the pistol so it's not "intended to be fired with one hand", thus putting me into AOW or SBR territory. Does this sound correct?

On the red part, where did you get this idea? I see people always use two hands to fire a handgun. In fact, I was taught that way. And there are countless examples where index point stippling, trigger guard checkering, gas pedals that are intended to facilitate a second hand on the handgun. Does that mean those gucci Glocks, competition race guns are all SBRs?

[hoodwinked]

On the red part, where did you get this idea? I see people always use two hands to fire a handgun. In fact, I was taught that way. And there are countless examples where index point stippling, trigger guard checkering, gas pedals that are intended to facilitate a second hand on the handgun. Does that mean those gucci Glocks, competition race guns are all SBRs?

when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or
permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand
and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).

source: https://www.atf.gov/file/97256/downl...0NFA%20Branch.

[hoodwinked]

Need to comply with both Federal and CA laws.

Thanks Quiet, that is some great info.

If the firearm is a Title 1 Handgun that is also a semi-auto pistol that has a fixed magazine and has a vertical forward grip, then it is an illegal Title 2 AOW and CA legal pistol.

This would be my scenario if I add a grip, I would need to get it Title 2 AOW, or just have no forward grip and keep as Title 1 Handgun.

Thanks!

[j6p2004]

If the firearm is a Title 1 Handgun that is also a semi-auto pistol that has a fixed magazine and has a second hand grip, e.g., AR hand guard, hand stop, etc., but not a vertical forward grip, then it is both federal and CA legal? Or it still has to be registered as Title 2 AOW?

[Quiet]

If the firearm is a Title 1 Handgun that is also a semi-auto pistol that has a fixed magazine and has a second hand grip, e.g., AR hand guard, hand stop, etc., but not a vertical forward grip, then it is both federal and CA legal? Or it still has to be registered as Title 2 AOW?

It is a Federal legal Title 1 Handgun that is also a CA legal semi-auto pistol with a fixed magazine.

Because it does not have a vertical forward grip, it is still considered a Title 1 Handgun. (no violations of Federal laws)

Because it is a semi-auto pistol with a fixed magazine, it can legally have features that would be restricted on semi-auto pistols that do not have a fixed magazine. (no violations of CA laws)
^Fixed magazine = CA legal to have threaded barrel, second handgrip, shroud, and/or accepting magazines outside of the pistol's grip.