CCW Rules

[Christopher761]

I am sorry if I caused any confusion. Top make matters worse, I used the term "open carry," which is not really exact. There are 5 crimes relating to carrying firearms in the state of California that we have to be wary of: (and none of them are the crime of open carry exactly....)
1) Crime of Carrying a Concealed Firearm [PC 25400 through 25700.]
2) Crime of Carrying a Loaded Firearm in Public [PC 25850 through 26100.]
3) Crime of Openly Carrying an Unloaded Handgun [PC 26350 through 26391.]
4) Crime of Carrying an Unloaded Firearm that is not a Handgun [PC 26400- 26405.]
5) Crime of carrying a loaded firearm (not a handgun) in a vehicle [Fish and Game 2006]

The exceptions that I cited have to be read within the context of the chapter in which they are located. (For example, PC 26010 is within the chapter of carrying a loaded firearm.)

The interesting thing you guys cited, which I never considered before is the Sheriff issued "license to carry open and loaded" which only applies in the county it is issued in. And it can only be issued in counties with less than 200,000 people.

The law is clear that the government cannot convict you for carrying a loaded firearm in public (PC 25850) if you fit into one of the exemptions (PC 26000 etc). And one of the exemptions is having CCW license. (PC 26010) But as some of you have pointed out, you seem to think that is unclear.

Let me see if I understand the argument: Hypothetically, I have a CCW. I have a handgun, which is listed on my ccw and the serial numbers match my CCW. The firearm is located on my waist, in a holster, on a belt. I am wearing a sport jacket, which covers that holster and firearm. (Assuming I am not going into a Courthouse or Airport, etc) If the jacket is brushed aside, and someone sees the previously concealed firearm, I am now guilty of carrying a loaded handgun (PC25850)? Pursuant to PC 26010, I believe the answer is no, because I have the CCW. It was loaded whether concealed or not. And the CCW is an exception.

Another thing to consider: There is no crime of "open carry."

If someone has caselaw to the contrary, or some other citable source to provide guidance, please let me know. I have never seen this issue come up. But maybe some of you more seasoned lawyers or police officers can set me straight.

Honestly, if you have a CCW, and you live in LA or San Francisco, you should keep it in your pants. (so to speak) As those places are very hostile to the thought that a private person should be allowed to even think of owning a firearm.

Another thing to consider: If the sheriff is receiving complaints about you and your exposed firearm, you are subject to discipline, including losing your CCW.

So I guess, if your sheriff who issued the CCW doesn't want you to open carry, you shouldn't.

I guess the conservative advice would be to not open carry.

As an aside, as far as the crime of open carrying an unloaded handgun, it has some exemptions as well. PC 26362 specifically says that the exemptions for carrying a loaded handgun found at PC 26000 etc apply (including PC 26010 which is the CCW exemption). PC 26000 through PC 26060 are exceptions to carrying a loaded handgun.

[Dvrjon]

Let me see if I understand the argument: Hypothetically, I have a CCW. I have a handgun, which is listed on my ccw and the serial numbers match my CCW. The firearm is located on my waist, in a holster, on a belt. I am wearing a sport jacket, which covers that holster and firearm. (Assuming I am not going into a Courthouse or Airport, etc) If the jacket is brushed aside, and someone sees the previously concealed firearm, I am now guilty of carrying a loaded handgun (PC25850)? Pursuant to PC 26010, I believe the answer is no, because I have the CCW. It was loaded whether concealed or not. And the CCW is an exception.

If the jacket isn't brushed aside, you are also not guilty of loaded carry. However, if you are carrying on the capitol grounds, or in a legislator's office or the Governor's mansion, etc., you are screwed.

Another thing to consider: There is no crime of "open carry."

There is a crime of unloaded open carry...look it up.

If there is no crime of "loaded open carry", then why does the Penal Code provide for certain sheriffs to issue such a license?

So I guess, if your sheriff who issued the CCW doesn't want you to open carry, you shouldn't.

One.
More.
Time.

The sheriff issues you EITHER a license to carry concealed, OR a license to carry open and loaded. That's what the statute says. You don't get both, and the concealed permit doesn't allow open carry...it allows CONCEALED...that's how it got its name.

As an aside, as far as the crime of open carrying an unloaded handgun, it has some exemptions as well. PC 26362 specifically says that the exemptions for carrying a loaded handgun found at PC 26000 etc apply (including PC 26010 which is the CCW exemption). PC 26000 through PC 26060 are exceptions to carrying a loaded handgun.

Try reading the statutes, again.

I'm out.

[Cokebottle]

All of the above, with the caveat:

CCW licenses are discretionary in this "may issue" state.

Your IA can legally establish policies, conditions or restrictions which may limit the number of authorized guns which can be carried at any time.

This.


Some counties may restrict you to carrying only one at a time (New Mexico does this).


Knowing your county will help someone from that area be more helpful.

[Cokebottle]

The sheriff issues you EITHER a license to carry concealed, OR a license to carry open and loaded. That's what the statute says. You don't get both, and the concealed permit doesn't allow open carry...it allows CONCEALED...that's how it got its name.

At one point it was a bit more nebulous, as the CCW provided an exemption from carrying a concealed weapon, provided an exemption from carrying a loaded weapon, and provided an exemption from the gun free school zone.
Effectively, it DID allow for loaded open carry simply because open carry was not prohibited outside of school zones, and the CCW provided an exemption for that which WAS prohibited.

That came to an end some time before open carry was outright banned... and I don't recall if it was through case law or what.
But in any case, CCW does not provide an exemption from the current statutes that prohibit open carry.

[mej16489]

At one point it was a bit more nebulous, as the CCW provided an exemption from carrying a concealed weapon, provided an exemption from carrying a loaded weapon, and provided an exemption from the gun free school zone.
Effectively, it DID allow for loaded open carry simply because open carry was not prohibited outside of school zones, and the CCW provided an exemption for that which WAS prohibited.

That came to an end some time before open carry was outright banned... and I don't recall if it was through case law or what.
But in any case, CCW does not provide an exemption from the current statutes that prohibit open carry.

I believe you are referencing when they added the language for 'as issued' (or similar) to the exemption. They narrowed the LTC exemption for 'loaded' to only work when comparing the 'carry style' to the 'license style'

In other words, one's LTC may only exempts one from the prohibition of loaded-ness when carried within the terms of the specific license. Concealed for a Concealed LTC; Open for an Open LTC.

[Chewy65]

If there is no crime of "loaded open carry", then why does the Penal Code provide for certain sheriffs to issue such a license?

One.
More.
Time.

The sheriff issues you EITHER a license to carry concealed, OR a license to carry open and loaded. That's what the statute says. You don't get both, and the concealed permit doesn't allow open carry...it allows CONCEALED...that's how it got its name.

Try reading the statutes, again.

I'm out.

Because this allows the Sheriff of a less populated county to issue a permit to residents to whom emergency services are less readily available. The availability of the open carry permit affords your local county sheriff the ability to exercise their discretion and issue the open carry permit to persons whom they would not trust to carry concealed, since some could reasonably believe that the ability to conceal exposes law enforcement and the public to a heightened risk of criminality and danger.

Still, and regardless of what appears to be dictum in the United States District Court I above cited ( Pizzo v San Francisco), which dictum I now believe is erroneous, I agree that a CCW will not exempt an individual from liability for exposed loaded carry. To that effect I note the following from the Terms of License Acknowledgement Concealed Carry - CCW for Orange County.

4. License holder shall not unnecessarily display or expose the concealed weapon or license.

[P5Ret]

Because this allows the Sheriff of a less populated county to issue a permit to residents to whom emergency services are less readily available. The availability of the open carry permit affords your local county sheriff the ability to exercise their discretion and issue the open carry permit to persons whom they would not trust to carry concealed, since some could reasonably believe that the ability to conceal exposes law enforcement and the public to a heightened risk of criminality and danger.

I'll give you the first part, but the second part sounds like some anti-gun rhetoric. Especially if a background check is done, and I'm sure there is.

[Chewy65]

I'll give you the first part, but the second part sounds like some anti-gun rhetoric. Especially if a background check is done, and I'm sure there is.

Perhaps it sounds like that but such was not intended. For example a Sheriff who would not feel comfortable entrusting a young man with a CCW on account of a somewhat stale misdemeanor may feel it appropriate to allow the same guy an open carry license given the inability of the county to provide the same level of law enforcement protection, while at the same time the Sheriff is more readily able to ascertain that the resident is carrying.

True, the availability of a loaded open carry license is argued in support of the anti 2A movement, but that does not mean that the argument lacks all validity. It merely has to be put in context, as have the pro 2A attorneys, who have explained how in effect the open loaded permit effectively denies the rights of most of state's people.

Don't get me wrong. I think the Sheriffs have way too much discretion. They should have to establish that they have very good cause to deny a permit and that decision should be open to challenge on appeal in a timely and inexpensive proceeding before something akin to a n administrative hearing where the tribunal would be charged with deciding in favor of issuance should the Sheriff not meet their burden of proof.

[ulmapache]

Re: Unloaded handgun
Why on earth would anyone carry an unloaded handgun unless it is in a case on the way to the range...or whatever...

[Christopher761]

Don't get me wrong. I think the Sheriffs have way too much discretion.

Just a reminder to all: Exercise your rights to vote. Be careful about who you put in office.