They Pile on the Laws Faster Than We Can Fight Them

[inalienable]

What I am getting at here is that this "fight" we keep touting is like the image below. Yes, we might be able to fight the roster or mag limits, but history's shown that our legislators are able to pass numerous guns laws in a single session.

That means they are taking this long because they are crafting a reversal. No other reason justifies this long a wait. None.

What do you mean by reversal? They are considering whether Harris has standing, and if so, whether to accept her petition for en banc. AFAIK the en banc court is chosen at random, so there isn't even a court to "craft" anything until standing AND en banc are granted, which I'm assuming we would hear about before an en banc court was convened.

There are any number of reasons they could be taking this time that don't involve her getting standing or en banc, not least of which could be to make sure they've dotted all their i's and crossed all their t's in what is obviously a highly scrutinized case. And frankly, on a judicial time scale, it hasn't even been that long.

Are you simply saying that since it's taking a while it must be bad? Did you apply the same logic to Palmer?


- inalienable

[Ford8N]

It's wonderful if you are young and have the time to wait DECADES for some slim chance that you might gain a modicum of the freedom, people just across the border enjoy. Good for you. If you are old and remember when California was a cool place to live and firearm owners weren't treated like potential criminals, LIKE WE ARE NOW!. Good for you. I want the same Freedom that Citizens across the California border have....NOW. The best plan of action is plan your escape to Freedom.

[Warrior King]

until there is no legal immunity for legislators creating laws that impede constitutional rights, I think our efforts will remain mostly reactionary.

Terms limits is the legal immunity. Politicians now view politics as a merry go round that they are forced to jump off of every 2nd term and move on to the next highest office.

Thus, they can never be punished after their second term by being voted out of office for violating the peoples will, or incurring the wrath of a once strong, moneyed, politically active minority such as gun owners or other groups.

Once upon a time the political elite feared strong vocal minorities because during midterm election cycles, they could hijack the polls, by getting out more of their members when most voters do not come out traditionally to vote.

Politicians now actually have an incentive to do the opposite which is bait vocal minority or special interests groups to make a name for the politician, or strengthen their national base etc. by creating controversy, or defining divisions in the electorate so they have the name recognition to move to the next highest office.

It is no coincidence that Yee, at the end of his final term, was one of the strictest gun control advocates in the country, and with no career prospects outside of government, and large debts was attempting to run for Sec. of State while proposing the most draconian guns laws.

There was also a rash of similar unnecessary, feel good laws against sex offenders, after term limits were imposed. Again another easy target as political correctness does not allow the targeting of traditional minority groups on the basis of race or religion etc.

Until term limits are reversed we can expect unscrupulous, psychopaths, like Yee to stand out from the pack by targeting the civil rights of gun owners.

It will be death by a thousand cuts until the courts intervene, which is what also happened with racial civil rights in America. Once the Yee's of the past constructed an air tight segregated social system, with the tacit consent of the majority,that oppressed racial minorities; those groups had to find relief in the courts.

[krwada]

Term limits == Lack of accountability

Terms limits is the legal immunity. Politicians now view politics as a merry go round that they are forced to jump off of every 2nd term and move on to the next highest office.

Thus, they can never be punished after their second term by being voted out of office for violating the peoples will, or incurring the wrath of a once strong, moneyed, politically active minority such as gun owners or other groups.

Once upon a time the political elite feared strong vocal minorities because during midterm election cycles, they could hijack the polls, by getting out more of their members when most voters do not come out traditionally to vote.

Politicians now actually have an incentive to do the opposite which is bait vocal minority or special interests groups to make a name for the politician, or strengthen their national base etc. by creating controversy, or defining divisions in the electorate so they have the name recognition to move to the next highest office.

It is no coincidence that Yee, at the end of his final term, was one of the strictest gun control advocates in the country, and with no career prospects outside of government, and large debts was attempting to run for Sec. of State while proposing the most draconian guns laws.

There was also a rash of similar unnecessary, feel good laws against sex offenders, after term limits were imposed. Again another easy target as political correctness does not allow the targeting of traditional minority groups on the basis of race or religion etc.

Until term limits are reversed we can expect unscrupulous, psychopaths, like Yee to stand out from the pack by targeting the civil rights of gun owners.

It will be death by a thousand cuts until the courts intervene, which is what also happened with racial civil rights in America. Once the Yee's of the past constructed an air tight segregated social system, with the tacit consent of the majority,that oppressed racial minorities; those groups had to find relief in the courts.

Yes ... At 1st, I was for term limits. Now that I have seen the incalculable damage that term limits have created here in California ... Well, let me say, your post is SPOT ON!

[CBruce]

This is something I neither condone or support for consideration, but will state for fact:

As the laws continue to pile up, the amount of people that abide by them will drop. Remember the magazine registration in Connecticut?

http://www.infowars.com/connecticut-gun-owners-revolt-refuse-to-register-firearms-magazines/

Chicago is a fine example of overreaching laws that have done nothing to curb gun crime. People have to choose whether they will chance being a victims vs. having to abide by the law.

Laws (useful and helpful laws that is) are designed to be benefical to society. It was never meant to be a notching post for politicians to BS their accomplishment record by attacking the freedom of citizens rights.

Time will prove this as the stupidity continues. I mean, if the rock just keeps getting bigger and heaver, do you push harder or sidestep it?

Another thing to consider is that they're becoming more and more narrowly tailored. It was ban all handguns, ban "assault weapons", license everything, permit everything, register everything. But now the laws are more incremental steps and the courts are making big, fundamental rulings. You can't ban guns in 'common use'. You can't prevent the people from carrying guns in public in some fashion.

I'm honestly surprised that Sandy Hook didn't result in more federal laws. That's huge. Didn't help that the anti-gunners didn't have their act together and the best they could do was offer decades old "solutions" that wouldn't have had any impact or prevented the tragedy they attempted to politicize. By all appearances, they still don't have their act together. They bounce around from 'protect the children' to 'protect women', but it's still the same old playbook...and more and more people are recognizing that.

So for now, the momentum seems to be scaling back on already established gun laws. Which is a good thing. Because all in all, gun laws in the US and even here in California aren't too cumbersome. Sure, it's a needless time and money sink with 'safety certificates' and 10 day waits, evil features and bullet buttons are ridiculous, and the roster is shaping up to be a major battleground in the near future. But right now, there's a lot of options available to gun owners that simply aren't allowed in many countries outside of the US.

That's not me saying things are fine and we shouldn't complain, but I am saying I don't think there's any reason to throw in the towel. Take a deep breath, donate if you can, and try to reach out to anti-gun people or those on the fence and expose them to what real responsible, safe, firearm ownership and use is all about.

[Baeleron]

I had this conversation yesterday:

Friend: I have no need for a gun
Me: Are there ever armed robberies in your neighborhood?
Friend: yes
Me: What would you do if 3 guys with guns came to your door tonight?
Friend: Give them whatever they wanted. I don't have anything worth taking.
Me: What if what they wanted was your wife or baby?
Friend: silence

I know I made him think. It's all about planting a seed in his mind. This is how the war will ultimately be won or lost, on a person to person level.

[CZ man in LA]

I had this conversation yesterday:

Friend: I have no need for a gun
Me: Are there ever armed robberies in your neighborhood?
Friend: yes
Me: What would you do if 3 guys with guns came to your door tonight?
Friend: Give them whatever they wanted. I don't have anything worth taking.
Me: What if what they wanted was your wife or baby?
Friend: silence

I know I made him think. It's all about planting a seed in his mind. This is how the war will ultimately be won or lost, on a person to person level.

Doesn't work when they are brainwashed beyond all means.

Ex childhood friend on FB: You're a gun owner blah-blah-blah-blah, this isn't the wild-wild-west blah-blah-blah, guns should be banned blah-blah-blah

Me: Dude, you lived in the same Koreatown neighborhood as I did when we were kids and we remember the LA Riots. You remember all those Korean-Americans, your own people, exercising their 2A rights by standing on the rooftops of their business protecting their property.

Ex childhood friend on FB: They still should be banned blah-blah-blah, I'm going to defriend you

Me:

[krwada]

Debate

Doesn't work when they are brainwashed beyond all means.

Ex childhood friend on FB: You're a gun owner blah-blah-blah-blah, this isn't the wild-wild-west blah-blah-blah, guns should be banned blah-blah-blah

Me: Dude, you lived in the same Koreatown neighborhood as I did when we were kids and we remember the LA Riots. You remember all those Korean-Americans, your own people, exercising their 2A rights by standing on the rooftops of their business protecting their property.

Ex childhood friend on FB: They still should be banned blah-blah-blah, I'm going to defriend you

Me:

It is like arguing with a brick wall.

[vospertw]

I have a brother who grew up with guns in the house, is an excellent marksman, still hunts, and yet politically you would think he breaks out in hives within 10' of a firearm (any guesses as to his political affiliation??).

I used to think the NRA and other groups had the wrong message - they always seemed to be preaching to the choir. I thought the better message would be to show non-gun owners how these laws affect them - reduced revenue, increased impact on LEO's, administrative costs of programs, etc. After being an NRA Election Volunteer Coordinator for almost a year, I'm coming to understand why the NRA and others preach to the choir. 1. It's very hard to change someone's mind, and more importantly 2. Only a fraction of gun owners take any interest or action politically.

That's not a slam on anyone - I was "too busy" for years as well. But imagine - and I say imagine because I know it's not realistic - if EVERY gun owner in CA started writing the Governor, calling and writing their representatives on each bill. I guarantee the numbers would make a difference. Politicians might be jackasses but they aren't stupid with regard to voters' sentiments. They know that in reality, it only takes a small percentage of eligible voters in a particular district to turn an election. Look at Colorado - the recall elections certainly didn't change the color of the state overall, but every politician in Colorado took notice.

[krwada]

Life long firearms owner here

I have a brother who grew up with guns in the house, is an excellent marksman, still hunts, and yet politically you would think he breaks out in hives within 10' of a firearm (any guesses as to his political affiliation??).

I used to think the NRA and other groups had the wrong message - they always seemed to be preaching to the choir. I thought the better message would be to show non-gun owners how these laws affect them - reduced revenue, increased impact on LEO's, administrative costs of programs, etc. After being an NRA Election Volunteer Coordinator for almost a year, I'm coming to understand why the NRA and others preach to the choir. 1. It's very hard to change someone's mind, and more importantly 2. Only a fraction of gun owners take any interest or action politically.

That's not a slam on anyone - I was "too busy" for years as well. But imagine - and I say imagine because I know it's not realistic - if EVERY gun owner in CA started writing the Governor, calling and writing their representatives on each bill. I guarantee the numbers would make a difference. Politicians might be jackasses but they aren't stupid with regard to voters' sentiments. They know that in reality, it only takes a small percentage of eligible voters in a particular district to turn an election. Look at Colorado - the recall elections certainly didn't change the color of the state overall, but every politician in Colorado took notice.

I have owned and grew up with firearms....

Just like you ... for a very long time. I did not pay attention.

Now; I do.

I am now an NRA Endowment member. In the next year or so ... I may upgrade to whatever is the next level.

[inalienable]

Another thing to consider is that they're becoming more and more narrowly tailored. It was ban all handguns, ban "assault weapons", license everything, permit everything, register everything. But now the laws are more incremental steps and the courts are making big, fundamental rulings. You can't ban guns in 'common use'. You can't prevent the people from carrying guns in public in some fashion.

I'm honestly surprised that Sandy Hook didn't result in more federal laws. That's huge. Didn't help that the anti-gunners didn't have their act together and the best they could do was offer decades old "solutions" that wouldn't have had any impact or prevented the tragedy they attempted to politicize. By all appearances, they still don't have their act together. They bounce around from 'protect the children' to 'protect women', but it's still the same old playbook...and more and more people are recognizing that.

So for now, the momentum seems to be scaling back on already established gun laws. Which is a good thing. Because all in all, gun laws in the US and even here in California aren't too cumbersome. Sure, it's a needless time and money sink with 'safety certificates' and 10 day waits, evil features and bullet buttons are ridiculous, and the roster is shaping up to be a major battleground in the near future. But right now, there's a lot of options available to gun owners that simply aren't allowed in many countries outside of the US.

That's not me saying things are fine and we shouldn't complain, but I am saying I don't think there's any reason to throw in the towel. Take a deep breath, donate if you can, and try to reach out to anti-gun people or those on the fence and expose them to what real responsible, safe, firearm ownership and use is all about.

You took the words right out of my mouth. All excellent points and perspective.

- inalienable

[Baeleron]

It is like arguing with a brick wall.

Many are brick walls. But many others simply aren't thinking about it, and are approachable if you do it the right way.

[nicki]

Solutions.

on average the California Legislature passed around 1500 new laws every year, obviously laws keep piling on and on and on and yes they can pass laws faster and we can challenge them.

We are our own worst enemies because the vast majority of gun owners won't do anything to protect their gun rights.

For example, it takes approximately 500,000 signatures to qualify a referendum on any law.there are far more than 500,000 gun owners in this state and if gun owners stepped up, organized and took action, it would mean that every time a new gun law was proposed, we would do an email blast and outlaw will be up for a vote on a referendum.

There are probably between 3 to 5 million gun owners in California, yet the percentage of gun owners who would get involved in such an effort will be under 10%. We are losing our gun rights because we choose to lose our gun rights.

We are not gun control victims, we are gun control volunteers.

I know that someday shares will, and say that a referendum would lose, well perhaps it may lose, but it will be a defiant action that would get the attention of the legislature.

Who knows, if we were organized enough in some districts perhaps why we're collecting signatures for a referendum we might also collect signatures for recall and make voting for violation of my rights very expensive.

I support term limits, but term limits is only part of the solution, the other part other solution to undoing laws is to enact across the board mandatory sunset provisions, say a 14 year Sunset and all laws.

This would mean that one loss would come up for renewal, none of the people who voted for the law in the first place will be voting on it again. 14 years would give the legislature plenty of time to figure out which laws need to be maintained versus which laws should be allowed to just expire.

The federal assault weapon ban was not repealed, it expired because it had a ten-year sunset and when it came up to a vote, the data showed that it was a useless law and it didn't get reauthorized.

the California Legislature has declared war on us, they won't go after rush with a full frontal assault, rather what they do is they slowly turn the heat up on the boiling water because they know that most gun owners won't leave their comfort zone.

having my foot in other civil rights issues besides guns, I can say dad got orders regrettably are the absolute worst as an overall group when it comes to standing up for their rights.

What it will come down to is that we need to hold each other accountable,every shooting buddies won't do simple things, if they keep coming up with excuses why they can't do simple things, then we are lost.

I believe the situation can be turned around, I put a blatantly pro gun marching contingent for the last 6 years in the annual San Francisco gay pride parade hey march. A pro gun contingent down the middle of their parade, in the middle of San Francisco, and overall are pro gun, pro self defense message was well received by the crowds.

I am NOT leaving California, I am going to stand and fight.if you start from the premise that you are defeated, then you will be defeated.

The German army over an both France and Poland in 30 days. The same army got tied up by severely under equipped Jewish resistance fighters in the Warsaw Ghettos for 6 months.

the Democratic legislature wants to push gun control laws here in California, something they forget is that California is part of the United States and their actions will cost their party many votes in Congress and possibly the US Senate itself.

Ultimately I believe that our Libtards in Sacramento will ensure a Republican victory in 2016 because they will piss off the rest of the country.

Hopefully with President Rand Paul in 2017 we will see a federal gun civil rights bill that will make most of Californias gun laws civil rights violations and we will have a Department of Justice that will enforce the law.

If the Republicans screw up and we get president Hillary in 2016, we may have American spring in 2017. If that happens, we all lose which is why I plan to invest a lot of my time and money in the presidential race in 2016.

[CZ man in LA]

And technology is moving faster than the laws can keep up.

[krwada]

Well stated

I am NOT leaving California, I am going to stand and fight.if you start from the premise that you are defeated, then you will be defeated.

This... this is why I will not run away to a "free" state

the Democratic legislature wants to push gun control laws here in California, something they forget is that California is part of the United States and their actions will cost their party many votes in Congress and possibly the US Senate itself.

It appears as if a lot of Calgunners have forgotten this too. The last time I checked ... California is still part of the Republic we call the United States of America.