Educating gun store owners?

[hammerhead_77]

Check out my thread on an encounter I had...

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=539952

Now, this guy is a very well regarded gunsmith - a real one, not a warmed over armorer. Known in the area for a very, very long time, etc...

How do you have a business and not do all you can to understand the laws regarding your vocation? Its like a dentist not keeping up on current practices, or a doctor not staying abreast of new drugs and therapies....

[SilverTauron]

When it comes to FFL's and lies, as a customer I don't play judge and jury.

Here's why.

In order to turn a profit an FFL has to appease three conflicting interests;and sometimes a fourth.

1) ATF. This agency is so disorganized they don't know their own laws. If the FFL fails to appease the oracles at their local ATF Branch, bye bye license, livelihood, and possibly their freedom.
2) The Customer. Without their money buying product and services, no profits and no business.
3) The Manufacturers. No product means nothing to sell, obviously.

Party number 4 is state agencies like the California DOJ, to name one. Fail to make them happy,and the same problems you get from angering the ATF apply but on a state level instead.

Because keeping all these conflicting actors happy long enough to make a living involves the occasional deception, I don't get in the mix of judging the FFL if they make a call I dont like. If the FFL doesn't want to transfer a 'legal' weapon,it may be because the local State DOJ inspector is a nazi who's gonna pull their FFL license if he ever sees the word "Saiga" in the bound book. Obviously the dealer's not going to go into specifics about how the last time they transferred a Saiga they almost got locked up.

I once bought a pistol online, only to find out that my receiving FFL's license was "out of regulations". Turned out the selling FFL in Georgia had a slime ball ATF inspector that was a real stickler for legal minutae , so he needed an additional signature on a part of my receiving FFL's license.My local dealer never heard of the signature requirement in over 20 years of business.

All that is to say, maybe we should just take our business elsewhere instead of trying to launch some sort of campaign strong arming dealers to do what we want out of convenience.

[FX-05 Xiuhcoatl]

I had something similar happen to me when I was making a deal with a fellow calgunner, the guy on the other side of the counter said sks norinco are not legal in the state of california, then another one said it has a bayonet is a felony to have it, I was cool as an ice cube and just let them talk, at the end we still did the transfer.

[Gunsmith Dan]

Ahhh correct me if I am wrong here but ......

I was in the understanding that a semi auto shotgun with a detachable magazine, standard stock or evil pistol grip, was considered a assault weapon?

12276.1 (a) Notwithstanding Penal Code section 12276, “assault weapon” shall also mean the following:

Rifles
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of
the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.
(2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10
rounds.
(3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches.

Pistols
(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.
(B) A second handgrip.
(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to
fire the weapon without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.
(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.
(5) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.

Shotguns
(6) A semiautomatic shotgun that has both of the following:
(A) A folding or telescoping stock.
(B) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or
vertical handgrip.
(7) A semiautomatic shotgun that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine.
(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.


Unless I am confused and we are talking about a Saiga rifle??

[mud99]

The only way a business adapts is by hearing feedback from customers.

If you don't ***** about it, they won't know what they did wrong, and they won't adapt, and they will eventually go out of business.

I would have been less offended had they put the rules on a sign, such as:

Store Rules
- We do not transfer Russian rifles, unless the owner isn't here.
- Handguns may only be viewed for 15 seconds before we rip them out of your hands and move on to the next customer
- We are nice people, you are the ***hole.
- NO OPEN CARRY. Loaded guns must be brought into store in a brown paper bag.
- Our legal advice sucks. You get what you pay for.

All that is to say, maybe we should just take our business elsewhere instead of trying to launch some sort of campaign strong arming dealers to do what we want out of convenience.

[Librarian]

I think it's a Saiga rifle - no post in this thread prior to yours seems to refer to a shotgun.

And there are bullet-button equivalents for Saiga shotguns, I believe, but (6)(A) and (6)(B) still are limitations on their own; unlike rifles, fixing the 'detachable magazine' problem does not allow 'features' for semi-auto shotguns.

BTW, new PC numbering for that section is PC 30515.

[CSACANNONEER]

Unless I am confused and we are talking about a Saiga rifle??

The OP must be talking about a rifle because, he did mention "detachable magazine" which is fine on a stock Saiga rifle but not on a Saiga Shotgun.

[Gunsmith Dan]

Yea there was no mention either way ..... was trying not to assume because in my line of work that can mean a ..... BOOM! then a "oops".

[mud99]

This was a Saiga rifle, not a shotgun.

[Gunsmith Dan]

Well nothing I can say about that .... the ATF and CA DOJ make it easy to find what is legal or not .... heck the ATF gives you a DVD with not only the Federal laws but all the state laws as well.

It is so easy to find the correct reference with the internet Firearms dealers, and gunsmiths, really don't have any excuse for not finiding out what is legal and not legal for them to sell/repair/customize.

[Tacobandit]

same reason why theres 12 million illegals who have lived here 20 years and yet none of them speak english.