I'm sure it's "here we go again time"...handloads and self defense

[opos]

I've tried the search in several of the threads and can't find something but I'd bet there has been plenty of discussion...Please excuse and indulge one more request if there have been prior threads on this issue.

I'm looking for one specific thing...is there any specific published court case history where handloads were all or a part of the case when handloads were used in a self defense situation...vs factory loads?

I don't want to start another opinion poll or speculation as there has been a lifetime of chat about this and I have to admit I've been on the bandwagon from time to time...I'm aware of Ayoob's writings and all the speculation about what a court or jury might or might not do , etc, etc.

I'm only searching for specific case citings that talk directly to the issue where handloaded ammunition being a direct or partial cause for someone defending themselves being charged with a crime. This is sort of like the flying saucers...if it's been so much of an issue...where is one actual piece of evidence or legitimate finding that it's for real?

I don't load hadloads in a s/d weapon...that's my choice but for the life of me I can't "prove" the claims that lead me to use factory ammo...

Thanks and I'll duck now for raising this issue again..

[bigdawg86]

I have wondered the same thing... nobody has every specifically stated why handloads would be a liability.

[mtsul]

Interested

[scarville]

I can imagine a case where the lack of an exemplar might make a difference but I've never heard of a self-defense case where it actually has. The case Ayoob usually refers to was not remotely self defense.

tagged...

[BoonieGhost]

if handloads arent legal to use here in CA for defense, its only because this state looks for any reason possible to punish people for trying to defend themselves... protectionist bastards!!!

[scarville]

I found this article which does mention a case where reloaded ammunition was an issue.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_4_51/ai_n11840291/

In one case I was consulted on back in the '70s, the shooter had used a CCI Speer 200-grain JHP he'd handloaded to equal CCI's ballistics in a factory loaded .45 ACP cartridge. The state police who investigated, and the prosecutor who brought him to trial for aggravated assault, kept asking why regular bullets weren't deadly enough for this man. On my recommendation, the defense brought Jim Cirillo in as an expert. He calmly explained the whole thing, including the fact the defendant's .45 ACP handloads were less powerful than the factory amino [sic] issued to the investigating troopers for their .357 Magnums, and the jury acquitted the shooter. Still, it was an attack that could have been prevented if the defendant had simply loaded with CCI's own factory cartridges, and used his identical handloads for training and practice.

[BKinzey]

I point out that the cases of this happening seem to be very rare and IIRC only one or two (I really can't remember enough about them) possibly gave some creedence to the fear, excuse me FUD, surrounding ammo.

There is a lot of Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt about what the DA can and will do. I am of the opinion that any DA who will make an issue around 10mm Black Talon reloads is going to go after any training, affiliations, and memberships you have that are firearm related and will claim you are a wanna-be ninja who was just itching to kill somebody anyway. You have more than 100 posts on CalGuns you are sunk.

I'm going to pick a firearm and ammo based on what I think will stop the threat best. I'm not going with second best because maybe the DA might do something.

[BKinzey]

I found this article which does mention a case where reloaded ammunition was an issue.

Massad Ayoub thinks it is. I like to see references and case numbers so others can analyze the case(s). I'll also point out one of his 2 cases he points out it was an "issue" but didn't affect the outcome of the case. He says so.

[SilverTauron]

May, 1990. I hang up the telephone and lean back in the chair in my office and utter the words, "Damn it!"

John Lanza, the attorney defending a young man against a charge of Murder, has just told me, "The state will contend that a different load with a different powder charge was used than what we determined from the defendant's reloading notes was likely to have been in the gun at the time the fatal shot was fired."\

It's important. It's very important. The difference is whether it's Murder as charged, or a man trying to pull the gun out of the hand of a woman he loves as she tries to commit suicide ... and tragically, failing to stop her.

The bullet that tore through Lise Bias' brain and killed her almost instantly had been fired from a Smith & Wesson Model 686, a heavy-duty stainless steel target-grade service revolver which, in this case, had a 6" barrel. The rifling marks conclusively showed the death bullet had been fired from this particular firearm, serial number AFH3446. Both prosecution and defense would stipulate this was the death weapon.

The problem was that the prosecution thought it was a murder weapon.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_181_30/ai_n26806104/-

In reference to the Case of Daniel Bias. Brass tacks summary, the police acquired a warrant and seized everything firearm related in the plaintiffs home during the investigation, including his reloads.The Grand Jury sought a murder charge because the handloads in the death weapon didn't leave gunshot residue for the crime lab to detect, which contradicted Bias' statement that his wife killed herself with his gun.

More records, posted by Mas Ayoob himself when asked the same question directly that the OP poses here.
Link :http://www.gunatics.com/forums/gener...mas-ayoob.html

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2129976&postcount=140

[Paul S]

if handloads arent legal to use here in CA for defense, its only because this state looks for any reason possible to punish people for trying to defend themselves... protectionist bastards!!!

Hand loads are perfectly legal in California. There is no legal prohibition against using hand loads in a self defense situation.
However, many caution that using anything other than regularly manufactured ammunition gives an opening to the D.A. and/or the family of the deceased.
"He was a good boy and getting his life turned around and now you've killed him." Can you see where the issue would arise from the ambulance chasing attorney?

A D.A. is highly unlikely to care what kind of ammunition was used to kill someone. If the case is justifiable homicide end of story. If the case is manslaughter or higher you've got a lot more to worry about than whether the ammo was a hand load.

[Fjold]

"In reference to the Case of Daniel Bias. Brass tacks summary, the police acquired a warrant and seized everything firearm related in the plaintiffs home during the investigation, including his reloads.The Grand Jury sought a murder charge because the handloads in the death weapon didn't leave gunshot residue for the crime lab to detect, which contradicted Bias' statement that his wife killed herself with his gun."

What kind of gunpowder doesn't leave residue?

[Meplat]

At least with hand loads the validity of duplication of results is known to be considered to be nonexistent. On the other hand, the confidence level of valid replication of results, with factory ammo, is extremely high. The performance of factory ammunition is not always consistent, even if ammo from the same lot # is used. It would be a real tragedy to be convicted on the bases of what everyone assumes is valid reliable results; that are anything but.

I don’t know about you but I don’t have to shoot my carry gun very often. Time and temperature are the enemies of ammo, especially powder and primers. If the ammo in your gun has been around for say a couple decades it is not going to perform exactly like other ammo from the same lot unless the storage conditions have been exactly the same.

I make it a point to shoot up and replace my carry ammo at least once a year. It is replaced with ammo from the same lot, bought at the same time. However, the carry ammo has been carried around all summer and winter in the outdoors under widely varying condition of heat, humidity, barometric pressure and the like. Add maybe being locked in a car trunk that may get to 140 to 160 degrees in summer and below freezing in winter, a few times. I am not going to expect that ammo to perform identically, in a scientifically measurable way, as ammo from the box it came in that has been stored in a cabinet or safe in my home at 72*F for the same period of time.

[bussda]

The primary problem with handloads is the difficulty in determining what the specific load of the round(s) fired. Factory ammo can be traced back to factory records. Home loaded ammo records can be considered manufactured evidence, and thus not considered. So other things get mixed in, which makes the accused seem to be lying.

An example: A person who witnessed a murder states person standing outside shot the victim from outside a closed window. Problem: All the window glass is outside. Every one knows when a bullet goes though a window, the glass travels in the same direction as the bullet. Thus window broken to add truth to the story, so the witness is accused of murder. BUT: When the local agency recreated the event, it verified the witness's story.

Any point not backed by an external factor becomes a point of argument.

[BKinzey]

...John Lanza, ....


NH v. Kennedy

... Jim Cirillo, who did a splendid job of demolishing that argument and other bogus arguments against Kennedy at trial, and Kennedy was acquitted.


TN v. Barnes

... We were able to do that without GSR evidence, and Mr. Barnes won an acquittal. In this case, I believe the use of factory ammo, combined with proper handling and preserving of the evidence by the initial investigators,

As for John Lanza here is an interesting part of his case:

"He proceeded downstairs and laid on the couch and watched TV. She came down with the .357 magnum in both hands. She stated that she had just got done watching a movie on TV and that 'it was so easy to shoot you any time I wanted.' He told her to 'stop fxxxxx' around,' and to put the gun away. She went upstairs to apparently put the gun upstairs, and approximately two minutes later he followed to ascertain if she did. When he walked in the master bedroom, he observed her standing in front of the mirror with the gun in her left hand pointing it at her head. He thought she was joking because of the fact she is right-handed and had the gun in her left hand. When she didn't acknowledge that he was standing there, he made a 'rash decision to grab it before she hurt herself.' He grabbed her left hand with his left hand and pulled the gun back. At that instant the gun fired and she slid off the dresser falling on a portable heater."

I would guess Mr. Lanza also had Gun Shot Residue on his hand.

There are actual cases where the bad person finds the HD gun first or manages to take it away from you. Some people use those cases to convince others not to have firearms for self defense at all.

[SilverTauron]

I believe the OP's question has been answered. Put simply using hand loads for self defense introduces a variable in court. When it comes to our legal system variables are not good.

Remember that this is just the case summary from one experienced expert court witness. These sorts of problems can take place all over the country, and without dilligent and expensive case searches we'll never concretely know how often hand loads play in convicting someone of a civil or criminal penalty.