Coin Sap - Opinions on how prosecutable this would be in Ca.

[Piper]

My wife brought up a very interesting point. She actually likened it to a purse. In other words, if a woman is attacked and she uses her very heavy purse to defend herself by hitting the dirtbag with it. So you have a coin purse that is used as an on hand resource to defend yourself. On the other hand, if you're using it to attack without provcation, that's an easy 242.

My point is this, I consider my wife to be a reasonable and prudent person, so if she doesn't consider it to be any different than a common carrier for money, I wonder how a jury would feel about this ?

[Matt C]

To show the absurdity of the idea that it magically becomes an illegal weapon upon use consider this; A man and wife finished their golf game and while she's changing shoes at the car, some thug assaults her with a knife. In defense of his wife, the husband grabs his 9-iron from his golf bag to whack the assailant and renders him unconcious. The "ADW" charge is a justifiable lesser included offense of Justifiable Homicide under 197-PC. Charging him with a 12020 violation for illegal "possession" of a "billy" or similar implement for the 4 seconds his golf club was pressed into service as such is a perversion of justice.

Agreed 100%. But nonetheless it is still chargeable. I don't think it's beyond a libtard DA to try and prosecute either, I can just hear it...

"That is when the much larger perpetrator grabbed the most dangerous object he could find, a heavy steel club, and in a vigilante attack clubbed the victim, who was a thin boy with a serious medical condition, until he was unconscious and near death. *cue pictures of the gruesome wound and teenager in hospital bed recovering with priest and mother bedside* Ladies and gentlemen of the jury we cannot allow this sort of rouge vigilante action using deadly and illegal weapons and so I must ask you to find the defendant guilty as charged."

[paradox]

Your link requires a login to read so I can't see when that decision was rendered. This fits, however, with the idea that carrying an aluminum baseball bat in your car is not illegal if your purpose for it is to be prepared to play some ball or do batting practice. If you indicate you keep it "for protection" (in a tough neighborhood) then it becomes a bludgeon type instrument.

Grubb was decided in 1967.

Your example only deals with possession. If you use an object as a weapon, you implicitly indicate that object is "for protection".

Other fun 12020 case law:

http://scoc.typepad.com/scocblog/files/King.pdf

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/data2/californiastatecases/S081209.PDF

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/data2/californiastatecases/A090617.PDF

[Piper]

And this is why if I'm asked if I have any weapons on me I would simply respond that I have my pepper spray. I would make no comments about my knife or my practice sword with the heavy basket hilt and ratan staff wrapped in duct tape. In those instances the knife is a tool and the practice sword is excercise equipment.

[paradox]

Speaking of weird 12020 edge cases....

I was looking for a spear to replace my walking stick when I stumbled upon this at Cold Steel:

http://www.coldsteel.com/92hc.html

Any person in this state who does any of the following
is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year
or in the state prison:
(1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the
state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives,
lends, or possesses any ... any belt buckle knife,...
any lipstick case knife, any cane sword, any shobi-zue, any air gauge
knife, any writing pen knife
...
(13) As used in this section, a "belt buckle knife" is a knife
which is made an integral part of a belt buckle and consists of a
blade with a length of at least 21/2 inches.
(14) As used in this section, a "lipstick case knife" means a
knife enclosed within and made an integral part of a lipstick case.
(15) As used in this section, a "cane sword" means a cane, swagger
stick, stick, staff, rod, pole, umbrella, or similar device, having
concealed within it a blade that may be used as a sword or stiletto.

(16) As used in this section, a "shobi-zue" means a staff, crutch,
stick, rod, or pole concealing a knife or blade within it which may
be exposed by a flip of the wrist or by a mechanical action.
...
(18) As used in this section, an "air gauge knife" means a device
that appears to be an air gauge but has concealed within it a
pointed, metallic shaft that is designed to be a stabbing instrument
which is exposed by mechanical action or gravity which locks into
place when extended.
(19) As used in this section, a "writing pen knife" means a device
that appears to be a writing pen but has concealed within it a
pointed, metallic shaft that is designed to be a stabbing instrument
which is exposed by mechanical action or gravity which locks into
place when extended or the pointed, metallic shaft is exposed by the
removal of the cap or cover on the device.

[paradox]

And this is why if I'm asked if I have any weapons on me I would simply respond that I have my pepper spray. I would make no comments about my knife or my practice sword with the heavy basket hilt and ratan staff wrapped in duct tape. In those instances the knife is a tool and the practice sword is excercise equipment.

[BillCA]

Fannin told Officer Oglesby that he carried the chain and padlock for self-defense. That statement identified the bicycle lock as a weapon, and brought it within the class of objects prohibited by Penal Code section 12020.

All the more reason to not claim anything as a weapon when it has other "innocent" uses. I have a walking stick that I occassionaly use, both to rest my decrepit back when taking a walk as well as something with which to ward off stray dogs. If asked, it's my walking stick so I can rest my back and/or legs when walking. Never mind that I know the old Koga baton methods and can apply them with the stick. The stick is my walking aid.

BWO - as much as I agree that some DA could pervert an act of defending one's wife into some chargeable offense, I'd think his arguments to the jury would be based more on the "letter of the law", while explaining that a golf-club ceases to be a "sporting goods product" when it is used as a weapon.

Of course, a good defense attorney would want 7 women on the jury to hear the wife tearfully recall the horror of a knife attack and how strong and brutal her attacker was at the time. And showing the jury the photos of her injuries while testifying she and her husband had a beautiful outing playing golf and were looking forward to dinner with their kids when she nearly lost her life.

[paradox]

All the more reason to not claim anything as a weapon when it has other "innocent" uses. I have a walking stick that I occassionaly use, both to rest my decrepit back when taking a walk as well as something with which to ward off stray dogs. If asked, it's my walking stick so I can rest my back and/or legs when walking. Never mind that I know the old Koga baton methods and can apply them with the stick. The stick is my walking aid.

[Matt C]

Remember you are posting on a public forum....

Anyways, yes you would probably get off in such a case unless the jury was insane and or in LA/SF. You will still be out 60-80k in legal bills though.

ETA: paradox beat me too it.

All the more reason to not claim anything as a weapon when it has other "innocent" uses. I have a walking stick that I occassionaly use, both to rest my decrepit back when taking a walk as well as something with which to ward off stray dogs. If asked, it's my walking stick so I can rest my back and/or legs when walking. Never mind that I know the old Koga baton methods and can apply them with the stick. The stick is my walking aid.

BWO - as much as I agree that some DA could pervert an act of defending one's wife into some chargeable offense, I'd think his arguments to the jury would be based more on the "letter of the law", while explaining that a golf-club ceases to be a "sporting goods product" when it is used as a weapon.

Of course, a good defense attorney would want 7 women on the jury to hear the wife tearfully recall the horror of a knife attack and how strong and brutal her attacker was at the time. And showing the jury the photos of her injuries while testifying she and her husband had a beautiful outing playing golf and were looking forward to dinner with their kids when she nearly lost her life.

[Piper]

Unless you've been attacked and you are very close to losing your life unless you do whatever it takes to stop the attack, you are clueless about what it's like to feel that way.

All I can say is I've been there and I will not be a victim again. If all I had was a can of gasoline and a lighter, I would douse the maggot with gas and set him on fire if I thought that would stop a violent attack against me.

[N6ATF]

That's a flashlight.... But if you hit someone with it who is raping your wife, it's a felony. Welcome to Kalifornialand.

I could show you a case where the item in question had not been used for ANYTHING related to combat. Do you think it makes it LESS of a weapon if it's used in defense? Or less likely for the DA to charge? As far as the DA is concerned it's like a bar fight, who started it does not matter, you are both criminals to be charged.

From rapist defense to a bar fight... there's an elastic stretch of epic proportions.

[Matt C]

From rapist defense to a bar fight... there's an elastic stretch of epic proportions.

So is calling a 1919 a .50 cal BMG machine gun.

[Bruce]

Experience< reading the actual law... And I'll let you know when I finish my law degree...

I suggest a reading comprehension class. The phrase "...or any instrument or weapon of the kind commonly known as a blackjack, slungshot, billy,sandclub, sap, or sandbag." refers soley to those items, not to what your imagination might try to twist it into.A golf club is not commonly known as a blackjack, slungshot, billy,sandclub, sap, or sandbag.

[1911_sfca]

No, my friend, it is actually you who are wrong.

Experience< reading the actual law... And I'll let you know when I finish my law degree...

You are taking sections of the law out of context and making some grand cognitive leaps.

One does not get charged for using a blunt instrument to defend oneself (or wife) against a felonious attack. If you think otherwise, look for one case (that withstood appeal) which meets that criterion. Self defense is perfectly allowable under CA law, and you simply wouldn't get charged under 12020 with using a common object to defend yourself.

If you use something that's specifically prohibited, such as a sap or billy club, that may be a different story. But chances are you wouldn't get charged if it were a case of self defense. Your illegal weapon would most likely be confiscated and that would be the end of it.

[Davidwhitewolf]

Blackwaterops said:

"...And there is the fact that CCW without a permit is only a misdemeanor (not that I would advocate breaking the law), and you are allowed to CCW/no permit if you are in danger or making an PC837 arrest."

I thought CCW without a permit was now a wobbler (i.e., it's the DA's choice to prosecute as either a felony or misdemeanor)? Am I incorrect about that?