Locked container?

[mud99]

I'd like to mount something like this under the seat of my car to store a handgun:

http://www.4wheelparts.com/Fabrication-Tools/Bestop-Underseat-Storage-Box.aspx?t_c=86&t_s=414&t_pt=9169&t_pl=102765

If the key is in the lock, but not turned, is it a "locked container"?

[mdimeo]

I sure wouldn't want to pay a lawyer to stand in front of a judge and jury and try to convince them that a box with a key in the lock was locked. Use some common sense.

If you want fast access, look into a fingerprint locked safe.

[paul0660]

If the key is in the lock, but not turned, is it a "locked container"?

The code also says "secure". If you walk away from the car, it seems to me with key inserted, it isn't secure, and the same condition exists when you are sitting in the car, but only God would know.

[HBrebel]

I would be hesitant to 'mount' a safe in the care. what if the vehicle is stolen? I would go with the locked portable container or bag that can be put into a backpack or briefcase that way the weapon can be taken with you when you leave the vehicle

[d4v0s]

A combo lock with the two out of three numbers ready is pretty fast. And still locked.

[cacop]

I got one of these for trips with kiddos nearby.

http://www.amazon.com/GunVault-NV300-NanoVault-Combination-Lock/dp/B003841ZBS/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1331832320&sr=8-5

It comes with a PVC coated wire to attach to a car seat post or other object. It can be cut but someone would have to have the foresight to have bolt cutters with them. Most theives are going for laptops, iPods, GPS, or other small portable electronic devices people keep in plain view in their car.

[Turo]

First off, the firearm would still have to be unloaded while being stored in the box and if you wanted to keep the key in the lock, I would make sure to pull the key out of the lock before getting out of the vehcile, or before a police officer approaches your car. You should always deny the officer consent to search but if he/she sees that locked container, you could be getting your vehicle towed and impounded, until the officer can get a warrant.

Before it comes to that, the officer will probably ask you "what's in the box?" and you could stone-wall them by saying "None of your business.", at which point the officer will probably just call a tow truck. However, you might try something to the effect of "I am a law abiding citizen, I have never been convicted of anything and I am transporting my legally owned, personal firearm unloaded in a locked container. However, I still do not consent to search. There is nothing illegal in this vehicle." The officer will most likely let you go, if you have no other issues with your record.

If you leave the key in the lock, it's hard to prove that you have any expectation of privacy. So, if the key is in the lock during a search, they'll probably open the box. At that point, whether the box was locked or not becomes an issue of your word against the cop's and I don't need to tell you how that argument is going to go in court. Personally, I wouldn't risk it. I would just remove the key; takes about .5 seconds.

Also, you might want to consider what would happen if your car got broken into. The last thing you want is for your firearm to end up in the hands of a criminal.

If an officer knows there is a gun in the box, they are legal to search it, only long enough to determine that the gun is being carried legally.

Don't tell cops you have guns. It can't ever help, best case scenario is that they check it and let you go, worst case is you made a mistake, or the officer thinks you did and you go to jail.

[mud99]

Can we please just stick to the topic? Is something a locked container if the key is in the lock and in the locked position?

Is the intent of the locked container to make the gun inaccessible to *me*, or inaccessible/secured from someone else/a child/a thief/etc?

We have thousands of threads which cover how to talk to police, and I am well aware that a gun can be stolen. We absolutely do not need to rehash these topics.

[Turo]

Yeah, you're right, of course but at that point, the cop is automatically thinking of two things: Guns or Drugs. The former is completely legal and if the cop is cool about it, he/she might let you go. If you have a locked container and the cop wants to see inside of it bad enough, they are going to figure out how. At the end of the day, Cops are people too. If you throw them a bone and tell them that you're not doing anything wrong, they might be cool about it. If you say "It's a legally owned, unloaded gun." and they still want to see it, you're fully within your rights to decline the search; if they were going to impound your car, or get a police dog to do a secondary search, you've lost nothing by telling them what's in the box. If you stone-wall them and "do not consent to search" they are going to stone-wall you and call the tow truck or a K-9 unit. It all depends on how much free time and discretionary income you have. If you're in compliance with the law, and you don't have all day to mess around with the cops, their dogs and lovely people who work at the impoud yard, then the best solution might be to open the case and show it to them. Definitely not ideal but if it gets them off your back...



If a cop questions you in passing, I agree 100%. However, in this scenario that the cop is already in your car and has found your lock box, what else are you going to do?


...at any rate, to the OP: I think the consensus amongst the responses is that you should not leave the key in the lock of your box while interacting with the police, nor while the vehicle is unattended.

You are free to decline the search, but because of the (e) check law, the officer can still check the gun to see if it's unloaded and carried legally.

If a cop questions you in passing, I agree 100%. However, in this scenario that the cop is already in your car and has found your lock box, what else are you going to do?

If an officer asks about what's in my locked box that I have not divulged the contents of, I will do one of two things: If the officer is clearly a federal officer, whom it would be illegal to lie to, I don't answer the question and tell them I have nothing illegal. If the officer is not a federal officer, I will most likely tell them it's camera equipment or expensive computer stuff.
I don't suggest everybody do what I would do in this situation, but what I would do is perfectly legal, and never gives an officer reason to search my belongings.

[CZ97B]

http://carolrossi.hubpages.com/hub/How-to-Transport-a-Gun-in-Your-Vehicle-in-California

This lawyer does a great job of summarizing the law.

If you cannot have the weapon in your glove box or center console, then it would seem intuitively obvious that you cannot have it under your buttox either, or so the LEO would say, and so the D/A would assert, and so the judge would find.

Or so I would think, if it were me.

Note also the part about "no generalized carry." It's only on those days you are going to the range, going hunting, going to the gunsmithy, etc. Not every day.

[Turo]

http://carolrossi.hubpages.com/hub/H...-in-California

This lawyer does a great job of summarizing the law.

If you cannot have the weapon in your glove box or center console, then it would seem intuitively obvious that you cannot have it under your buttox either, or so the LEO would say, and so the D/A would assert, and so the judge would find.

Or so I would think, if it were me.

Note also the part about "no generalized carry." It's only on those days you are going to the range, going hunting, going to the gunsmithy, etc. Not every day.

And that guy is full of bull feces. There's no law that requires a gun-related destination when otherwise legally transporting a firearm.

[CHS]

Can we please just stick to the topic? Is something a locked container if the key is in the lock and in the locked position?

If a key is in a lock, it is by very definition "unlocked".

So no.

Why would anyone ever think otherwise?

[mud99]

Common sense agrees with you.

Legal definition and common sense are often very different.

A lock has two positions, locked and unlocked. When in the locked position, even with the key inserted, the case is still unable to be opened.

A biometric case, which appears perfectly legal, only needs a touch of a finger to open, not even a tool.

At one point, a poster on calguns was having combination locks made, where you just pressed two of the button and the lock opened, and I believe that was considered legal as well

I don't see how either of these are any different than a key which has to be rotated from the locked to unlocked position.

[CZ97B]

And that guy is full of bull feces. There's no law that requires a gun-related destination when otherwise legally transporting a firearm.

12026.2. (a) Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the following: (1) The possession of a firearm by an authorized participant in a motion picture, television, or video production or entertainment event when the participant lawfully uses the firearm as part of that production or event or while going directly to, or coming directly from, that production or event. (2) The possession of a firearm in a locked container by a member of any club or organization, organized for the purpose of lawfully collecting and lawfully displaying pistols, revolvers, or other firearms, while the member is at meetings of the clubs or organizations or while going directly to, and coming directly from, those meetings. (3) The transportation of a firearm by a participant when going directly to, or coming directly from, a recognized safety or hunter safety class, or a recognized sporting event involving that firearm. (4) The transportation of a firearm by a person listed in Section 12026 directly between any of the places mentioned in Section 12026. (5) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going directly to, or coming directly from, a fixed place of business or private residential property for the purpose of the lawful repair or the lawful transfer, sale, or loan of that firearm. (6) The transportation of a firearm by a person listed in Section 12026 when going directly from the place where that person lawfully received that firearm to that person's place of residence or place of business or to private property owned or lawfully possessed by that person. (7) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going directly to, or coming directly from, a gun show, swap meet, or similar event to which the public is invited, for the purpose of displaying that firearm in a lawful manner. (8) The transportation of a firearm by an authorized employee or agent of a supplier of firearms when going directly to, or coming directly from, a motion picture, television, or video production or entertainment event for the purpose of providing that firearm to an authorized participant to lawfully use as a part of that production or event. (9) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going directly to, or coming directly from, a target range, which holds a regulatory or business license, for the purposes of practicing shooting at targets with that firearm at that target range. (10) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going directly to, or coming directly from, a place designated by a person authorized to issue licenses pursuant to Section 12050 when done at the request of the issuing agency so that the issuing agency can determine whether or not a license should be issued to that person to carry that firearm. (11) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going directly to, or coming directly from, a lawful camping activity for the purpose of having that firearm available for lawful personal protection while at the lawful campsite. This paragraph shall not be construed to override the statutory authority granted to the Department of Parks and Recreation or any other state or local governmental agencies to promulgate rules and regulations governing the administration of parks and campgrounds. (12) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to comply with subdivision (c) or (i) of Section 12078 as it pertains to that firearm. (13) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to utilize subdivision (l) of Section 12078 as it pertains to that firearm. (14) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going directly to, or coming directly from, a gun show or event, as defined in Section 478.100 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, for the purpose of lawfully transferring, selling, or loaning that firearm in accordance with subdivision (d) of Section 12072. (15) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to utilize paragraph (6) of subdivision (a) of Section 12078 as it pertains to that firearm. (16) The transportation of a firearm by a person who finds the firearm in order to comply with Article 1 (commencing with Section 2080) of Chapter 4 of Division 3 of the Civil Code as it pertains to that firearm and if that firearm is being transported to a law enforcement agency, the person gives prior notice to the law enforcement agency that he or she is transporting the firearm to the law enforcement agency. (17) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to comply with paragraph (2) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072 as it pertains to that firearm. (18) The transportation of a firearm by a person who finds the firearm and is transporting it to a law enforcement agency for disposition according to the law, if he or she gives prior notice to the law enforcement agency that he or she is transporting the firearm to the law enforcement agency for disposition according to law. (19) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to comply with paragraph (3) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072 as it pertains to that firearm. (20) The transportation of a firearm by a person for the purpose of obtaining an identification number or mark assigned for that firearm from the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 12092. (b) In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision (a), while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision (d), and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances. (c) This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this chapter. (d) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device. The term "locked container" does not include the utility or glove compartment of a motor vehicle.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12020.php

[CZ97B]

It seems to me that you would have only succeded in "building" a new "utility container" under your buttox, and therefore the statute is on point, and the answer to your query is *no*.