Who you gonna call? (Excessive PPT fees)

[stix213]

I had a similar problem at a FFL in San Luis Obispo almost three years ago now. I tried and tried to get them to understand they were wrong but they just kept making up bs on how i wasn't reading the law right and i didn't know what I was talking about. So I finally called the DOJ and faxed them a copy of the receipt and they paid them a visit and then called me to tell me i could go pick up my money. The FFL was not very happy with me but i have no regrets, I tried my best to rectify the situation without involving the authorities.

That's like getting mad at the home owner who reports a robbery.

[Pyrodyne]

OP, I believe that I have run across complaints about this same FFL before. Many attempts were made to contact them but they never answer the phone or reply to voicemail. I fear the best we can do is not use them for PPT in favor of other nearby FFLs until they stop overcharging, at least until someone gets mad enough to call DOJ.

[Big Ben]

That's like getting mad at the home owner who reports a robbery.

I'll bet most robbers get mad at the homeowner when they report the robbery. :-)

[Flintlock Tom]

If you have some spare time, after trying to correct his policy, try filing an action in small claims court. Let the judge explain the correct interpretation of the law.
It's cheap and the process is interesting. After the FFL guy has to pay back the over-charge and your $25 filing fee, as well as spend several hours at the court-house, I bet he gets the message.

[dfletcher]

I don't accept this, hence my post - but again I don't think it merits an outing that might shutter the business without a chance to correct the mistake. The gun culture is tough enough in California - we don't need gun owners publishing the misdemeanors committed by FFLs and making access to guns even harder. I honestly think that this is a mistake on his part, and while it's unprofessional at minimum, if he accepts the PC for what it is and changes his policy, then there's no reason to make an allegation that might lead to the loss of the business, criminal charges, and maybe even loss of gun rights for a firearms-related misdemeanor. That punishment is unreasonable for a moderate over-charge.

I think it's fine to wait and talk to the guy before posting a name. Give him the info, allow him to correct. That's polite. But I disagree regarding accepting the fellow breaking the law.

I think you overestimate the practical effect such disclosure will have on his business, from what I've seen these folks are hurt not one bit because buyers either aren't aware or they get into the deal and don't want to make a stink.

I do not accept that people can break the law "a little bit". I wouldn't go to a mechanic who recycled brake fluid and charged me for new, I wouldn't go to a restaurant that advertised a 2 lb steak and plopped a 1 lb burger on my plate. People should not acccept it when a LGS steals their hard earned money for a "moderate over charge" and if they do they shouldn't be surprised when it continues or is expanded. I calculated the overcharge of a LGS at a recent gun show and they took in an additional $9K on PPTs. That's not pocket change.

If a fellow breaks the law and lies to me to pocket an extra $25.00 or so, I kind of wonder what else he may do to take in more $$ - fudge on the difference between new & used, do a quick fix on a gun just to get it sold, not stand behind a gun bought in his store?

Again, I hope the fellow just made a mistake. If he doesn't I think it is appropriate to name the store - otherwise I guess I'm missing the point of opening the thread.

[notme92069]

I think it's fine to wait and talk to the guy before posting a name. Give him the info, allow him to correct. That's polite. But I disagree regarding accepting the fellow breaking the law.

I think you overestimate the practical effect such disclosure will have on his business, from what I've seen these folks are hurt not one bit because buyers either aren't aware or they get into the deal and don't want to make a stink.

I do not accept that people can break the law "a little bit". I wouldn't go to a mechanic who recycled brake fluid and charged me for new, I wouldn't go to a restaurant that advertised a 2 lb steak and plopped a 1 lb burger on my plate. People should not acccept it when a LGS steals their hard earned money for a "moderate over charge" and if they do they shouldn't be surprised when it continues or is expanded. I calculated the overcharge of a LGS at a recent gun show and they took in an additional $9K on PPTs. That's not pocket change.

If a fellow breaks the law and lies to me to pocket an extra $25.00 or so, I kind of wonder what else he may do to take in more $$ - fudge on the difference between new & used, do a quick fix on a gun just to get it sold, not stand behind a gun bought in his store?

Again, I hope the fellow just made a mistake. If he doesn't I think it is appropriate to name the store - otherwise I guess I'm missing the point of opening the thread.

Excellent post!

[cmichini]

This thread should already have a resolution. Started 1/9... it's 1/12.

Either OP showed LGS FUDTARD/FRAUD the PC and gotten his money back or OP reported to DOJ and outed the FUDTARD/FRAUD.

I mean how many other fraudulent PPT fees should continue to happen before the FFL gets straightened out (either by the easy or hard way).

Makes me glad I got transferred out of CA last year. PPT's are PRIVATE back in America.

[Hopalong]

Sue him on Judge Judy.

She'll set him straight and humiliate him in front of 10M people.

[Munk]

I'm glad I haven't run into the PPT over-charge yet. I'd probably do what others have said, and try reasoning with them prior to calling the DOJ for their misdemeanor.

Interesting how he's not "poorly educated" on the side of charging too little rather than too much ....

I've dealt with more than a few FFLs on this issue and have crossed off a few LGS as a result. Be prepared for all sorts of rationalizations, side steps and lectures from the store on what you "don't know" about CA gun laws. I hope you'll return and post the results of your endeavors.

If you accept that the FFL can charge whatever he wants I suspect you have your answer as to why he does it - 'cause it works.

My response to them would be "I probably know more than you, just about different topics, and on this one, you're absolutely wrong".

Hell, I still run into sales people at larger stores who seem to think that T/C Contenders and the like are still illegal, there's no way to get an AR or AK pistol, and that the Serbu Super Shorty is absolutely illegal to buy, as opposed to just difficult.

[SPaikmos]

There's an FFL down here that does the same thing. I can understand the OP's predictament, in that he doesn't want to lose a convenient FFL over a few dollars.

Munk, I can understand how people generalize and turn "Serbu Super Shorty is difficult" to mean "it's absolutely illegal". For most people, they aren't willing to do the work to set up a NFA trust, pay the stamp, etc. Hence, it's "impossible" for them, which can become "illegal" after some generalization.

On a related note, I went to buy a blue label glock and was surprised that the LGS has a surcharge on these because "they don't make enough money on them". Didn't sit well with me, but Glock tells me the next nearest blue label dealer is over 100 miles away. Add in the time + gas, and you're kinda stuck paying the surcharge as it's still cheaper than any other option out there.

I guess this is why monopolies are bad....

[QQQ]

There's an FFL down here that does the same thing. I can understand the OP's predictament, in that he doesn't want to lose a convenient FFL over a few dollars.

Munk, I can understand how people generalize and turn "Serbu Super Shorty is difficult" to mean "it's absolutely illegal". For most people, they aren't willing to do the work to set up a NFA trust,

I thought the ATF got rid of the CLEO/NFA trust requirement?

[ke6guj]

I thought the ATF got rid of the CLEO/NFA trust requirement?

nope, not yet. There is a rumor that ATF and fedDOJ have signed off on eliminating the CLEO requirement, but it still has to go through the bureaucratic process to get the forms updated.

[Serpentine]

FFL's are supposed to post their fees in plain sight. The DOJ is very strict about this.

Were the charges different than what was posted? If your itemized receipt doesn't correspond to their posted fees, I'd politely take it up with the FFL himself, NOT a counter worker or manager.

.

[Wherryj]

There's an FFL down here that does the same thing. I can understand the OP's predictament, in that he doesn't want to lose a convenient FFL over a few dollars.

Munk, I can understand how people generalize and turn "Serbu Super Shorty is difficult" to mean "it's absolutely illegal". For most people, they aren't willing to do the work to set up a NFA trust, pay the stamp, etc. Hence, it's "impossible" for them, which can become "illegal" after some generalization.

On a related note, I went to buy a blue label glock and was surprised that the LGS has a surcharge on these because "they don't make enough money on them". Didn't sit well with me, but Glock tells me the next nearest blue label dealer is over 100 miles away. Add in the time + gas, and you're kinda stuck paying the surcharge as it's still cheaper than any other option out there.

I guess this is why monopolies are bad....

Get yourself a really great "weekend" car (mine is a 2003 Honda S2000). Driving 100 miles to the HONEST FFL will give you a great experience and a chance to get out on the road.

[dieselpower]

.... and when you question the amount they just start ignoring the PPTs. Like one shop we know of in the Ventura area who will ignore you until to go away. each clerk will just ask what you need, when you state, "a PPT", they just say," Ok hold on." and walk away to help "paying customers". If there are no other customers in the store they will start your paperwork.