Another "what to do after a shoot" question

[Cokebottle]

You can move the person you stopped. Technically legally OK, I'm sure, if you are trying to save their life or yours.

But I think moving them is a bad idea under almost any circumstance:
1. Legally problematic. Some prosecutor is going to consider going after you for trying to cover an illegal shoot by moving the perp. Maybe you won't go to prison for it, but maybe you will.
2. Tactically very, very bad. What if the bad guy's buddy shows up while you've got your hands full of a bloody body? You are essentially defenseless. And even if you've got someone else to move the body while you try to maintain a defensive posture, the odds are pretty good that you won't be able to maintain a clear field of fire for the next bad guy to come through that door. Assuming there is only one bad guy is a bad idea.

So you shoot to stop the person trying to kill you. You hopefully are able to get someone else to call 911 while you maintain vigilance for the next bad guy. Don't try to save the bad guys life by doing anything other than calling 911. After the cops have arrived comply with their physical commands but tell them nothing other than that they were going to kill you and that you stopped them. Point out any evidence you think they might need to know about and is not immediately evident. Call your lawyer and do exactly as they say - including not talking to anyone about stuff.

Tough to do the above when someone just tried to kill you and you had to stop them with deadly force. But playing it through as a mental exercise is important.

Shoot to stop (not to kill) - center of mass. Call 911. Shut up and comply with orders and your lawyer's advice.

This...

Mega dittos.

To those who say to remain on the line with 911, that may or may not be the smartest thing to do, as it poses two problems...
1 - The operator is going to attempt to engage you in conversation.
The ONLY thing that he/she needs is that you need an ambulance and officer, your description, what you are wearing, and where you will be waiting for the officers.
2 - If the intruder is NOT dead, the distraction of the 911 call (in addition to the operator begging you not to shoot anyone) could cost you dearly
3 - If the intruder is not alone, see above.

[Panchira!]

I probably would not point out the evidence. They will do their own investigation. Don't move the body as it will be considered evidence spoliation.

[george223]

When a cop is in a situation where he feels he needs to fire his weapon, they are trained to shoot until their gun is empty. So I've heard. Even if it's a pissed off old homeless lady with a screwdriver and a shopping cart.

So, you get woken up in the middle of the night by an intruder and you feel your life is threatened. What do you think the DA would say if you emptied your 15 rnd magazine into the intruder? I'm guessing that it wouldn't be good for you.

[wilit]

This is one of the best threads I've read regarding what happens after you defend yourself with a gun. The OP has some follow up answers on page 3 also.

http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/xdtalk-chatter-box/161394-things-we-learned-home-invasion-oklahoma.html

[weinerd]

When a cop is in a situation where he feels he needs to fire his weapon, they are trained to shoot until their gun is empty. So I've heard.

That's some crappy training.

When I was working for a LE agency in Canada (not as an officer though), it was 3 shots center of mass and then assess. Qualification was handled in that manner: target would turn, draw and fire 3 in 3 seconds (5, 10 yards), 5 seconds (15, 20 yards) or 7 seconds (25 yards), the target would turn, firer would stand drawn and ready, and then at some random time between 2-5 seconds the target would turn again and you'd fire 3. You'd do 2 rounds of 6 shots at each distance for a total of 60 shots and max score of 300. You needed something like 250 to qualify iirc. I think I shot around 280.

[OleCuss]

I can't speak to LEO training. Never done that.

But if they are training LEO's to empty their magazine as a matter of principle my non-LEO reaction is one of near-horror.

Don't get me wrong, if the bad guy was threatening a life I don't have a huge problem with their being made holy. My problem is for the safety of the officer. I also have some concerns about what is going to happen to the shooter who, in a self-defense situation shoots until their magazine is empty rather than until the threat is stopped - it's going to look a lot like the intent was to kill rather than to stop and that can put you in prison.

An empty magazine means at least a delay in servicing another target should it present itself. This is not a tactically desirable situation.

When the target appears to be stopped, do a quick assessment of the stopped target (to judge whether it is still a threat), try to establish cover from the stopped target and any other targets and remain ready to engage or re-engage until other assets have arrived to secure the area.

Three to COM and assess seems reasonable. Emptying the magazine may be the natural reaction but so far as I can tell we should be training to avoid that.

When I was in the Army/CAARNG I came to the conclusion that you never had enough ammo. Use it when you must but don't waste it.

I'll happily accept correction from those who know more.

[Doheny]

I was thinking that maybe you were allowed to remove the intruder. Is there any requirement that you let them stay in your home or is it just a "good idea"?

You may want to consider this book. It contains a lot of good info.

[george223]

I don't have any 1st hand knowledge of LE training so maybe my previous statement was more perception than fact. I based my previous statement on what I've heard in the news over the years. Yes, there was a pissed off old homeless lady with a screwdriver that was filled full of holes and most recently, that ex-marine who was in his home in Tuscon who was fired on by the SWAT team 72 times and was hit 22 times (depends on which news story you hear). The excuse you always hear in the news about these situations is that it's per dept. procedure.

If I was confronted by an intruder and had to protect myself, I sure wouldn't want to explain to the DA why I fired my gun more than necessary. It would come across as an execution as did the situations I mentioned above.

Sorry, might be getting a little off topic.

[creekside]

if worst comes to worst in a home invasion, and you have to shoot to stop an intruder, what do you do until the cops get there?

Hold what you've got. Reload if you can.

my plan is to stay in my room while talking to the cops and wait, but if an intruder comes through my bedroom door threatening me with a gun and i shoot, theres a good chance he will land on my closet.

so if its in the middle of my sleep time and i am in my usual sleeping outfit, should i move the person in order to retrieve pants from my closet before the cops get there?

its obviously a good idea to leave the scene untouched, but i think its also a good idea to not try to talk to the cops while your naked.

Do not tamper with the scene. You've just saved your life from a deadly threat. Take no chances. If you can wrap yourself in a towel or something, fine. But don't hesitate to meet the police stark naked. Don't risk your life because of misplaced modesty.

Firefighters and EMTs don't care either. Leave the burning house naked and don't pause to put on clothes before calling 911 for that sudden chest pain.

maybe having a set of clothes under the bed would be a good idea. i just thought about that.

so i guess this thread is now more for input, and to share the idea of having a spare set of clothes somewhere that is unlikely to mess with the scene.

A towel has many uses, including life-saving first aid.

or... does the scene not matter? can you drag them out of your house and leave them on the steps?

A great way to be indicted for murder.

[Kukuforguns]

On the other hand, a little bit of investigation is going to show that the homeowner/resident shot someone - gunshot residue, a handgun just fired, casings on the floor, a bullet of the same caliber as the gun in the downed perp - and then your defense is going to be 'self defense'.

At that point, you must admit you actually shot the perp, but had a legally sufficient reason for doing so.

Rather than relying on the 'they don't know' expectation, 'self defense' will be aided by saying some things.

For example

Yes, I shot him.
He broke in.
I was afraid for my life.
See the knife/gun in/by his hand?

See also Mas Ayoob - one copy here: http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/xdtalk-...-shooting.html

Hmm, it appears I was unclear. At the time of incident, you should not tell anything to the police other than: "There is at least one intruder in my house and medical assistance is needed. I live here and I look like Mel Gibson (his Mad Max days, not now)."

You can now get a lawyer, which you should do. You can tell your lawyer what happened. Your lawyer can get the police report. You and the lawyer will then review the evidence collected by the police and compare it against your recollection of events and look for any inconsistencies. If there are no inconsistencies and everthing points to a justified shooting, you can then decide if there is any benefit in telling the police: "I was sleeping naked in my bed when I saw a man running at me with a big knife. I pulled my pistol from under my pillow and pulled the trigger until he stopped advancing upon me. I called 911 as soon as I was no longer in fear of being murdered." If the police are not interested in the incident, you don't need to say anything. The police can add 2+2 and get 4. If it was a justified shooting, the police will likely be able to determine that from the physical evidence.

The point here is that you can always talk to the police. It's not like the only opportunity you will have is at the time of the incident. But, you cannot unspeak something once told to the police. And as I'm sure you've all figured out by now, our memories are not perfect . . . especially under stressful situations. So, take the time to compare your recollection with the evidence collected by the police.

There is a reason police officers are instructed by their unions not to discuss their involvement in a shooting situation until after they have discussed the incident with a union representative and/or counsel. The officers are getting their story straight and making sure their story is consistent with the physical evidence. Do the same thing.

[Mr Blu]

An empty magazine means at least a delay in servicing another target should it present itself. This is not a tactically desirable situation.

When the target appears to be stopped, do a quick assessment of the stopped target (to judge whether it is still a threat), try to establish cover from the stopped target and any other targets and remain ready to engage or re-engage until other assets have arrived to secure the area.

Three to COM and assess seems reasonable. Emptying the magazine may be the natural reaction but so far as I can tell we should be training to avoid that.

When I was in the Army/CAARNG I came to the conclusion that you never had enough ammo. Use it when you must but don't waste it.

I'll happily accept correction from those who know more.

This.

I was Army infantry for 8 years and we trained 2 COM and 1 to the face, but I digress. Standard combat load for a rifleman was 210 rds minimum. Shooing 1 round a second, means 210 seconds. How many minutes of ammo do you have???

Conservation of ammo, means conservation of life.

[weinerd]

This.

I was Army infantry for 8 years and we trained 2 COM and 1 to the face,

Yeah, while training was 3 to COM for the police force, I personally mainly do mozambique drills.

[Meplat]

When a cop is in a situation where he feels he needs to fire his weapon, they are trained to shoot until their gun is empty. So I've heard. Even if it's a pissed off old homeless lady with a screwdriver and a shopping cart.

Negative! They are trained to shoot until they stop the threat. Doctrine is that as long as the threat is moving it is still a threat. They keep shooting as long as the threat (person) keeps moving. Now, when one is being shot at and occasionally hit, ones fight or flight instincts are going to take over. Those instincts don’t care who is right or wrong they are just trying to survive. One will take action of some kind in a desperate attempt to survive, one will ‘move’.

Few police are really very good marksmen, few of any of us are very good marksmen in a life threatening situation. The result is that the threat is not usually killed outright until dozens if not hundreds of shots are fired and many magazines emptied. This further results in a forgone cascading debacle in which the threat is shot to hamburger.

A complicating factor occurs when large numbers of police are involved. Bullet strikes from other officers keep the body moving even after death and reports from the guns of other officers gives the impression of an ongoing gunfight even after the threat is dead. I have noticed that in officer involved shootings where only a ‘reasonable’ number of rounds were fired there are usually only one or two officers involved.

It would be a good thing if police agencies could figure out a way to curb this phenomenon while maintaining at least as high a level of officer protection as we have now. It really does look bad. But I have no clue what could be done.

[OlderThanDirt]

This.

I was Army infantry for 8 years and we trained 2 COM and 1 to the face, but I digress. Standard combat load for a rifleman was 210 rds minimum. Shooing 1 round a second, means 210 seconds. How many minutes of ammo do you have???

Conservation of ammo, means conservation of life.

I went through the local PD Citizen's Academy and they stressed 2 COM, pause, and 1 to the head if necessary. They made us practice it at the range numerous times until we all felt comfortable.