Ideas about enlisting other states to put pressure on CA

[stix213]

I have to take issue with this part.
Sorry, you're just wrong on this one Bill.

Here is a partial list of companies that have left, are shifting some operations out of CA, or have chosen to create new installations outside of California where they are from (which is obviously more logistically complicated, so there must be a good reason).

Actually Apple has expanded in other states. They built a $1 billion facility in North Carolina as opposed in their home state.
Boeing has all but completely left (I know someone that works there).
Audix
Cessna Aircraft
Denny's Corporation (yes, Denny's).
Carl's JR HEADQUARTERS, not just a single location. Plus, even if you don't like the food you should want the business.
DuPont
Ebay and Paypal
Facebook
FedEx closed a facility here.
Fujitsu FronTech North America
Hershey's
IBM
Intel (spent $11 billion in other states, closed plant in CA and said it will never build another here).
J.C. Penney
LegalZoom.com (moving to Texas over tax dispute with City of L.A.)
McAfee, Inc. (acknowledged that it intentionally avoids hiring in high-cost, high-tax California. Transferred entire departments elsewhere and saves about 30 to 40% every time the company hires outside of the state. Texas is one of the locations to which McAfee has moved.)
Nissan North American moved its entire HQ to Nashville from L.A.
Northrop Grumman Fourth largest Aero/defense company in the world. by 2011 will relocate its Los Angeles H.Q. to the Washington, DC metro area. It’s the last major aerospace company to leave Southern California, the birthplace of the aerospace industry.
Novellus Inc (based on budget crisis and policies).
Precor (one of the largest manufactures of fitness machines).
U.S Airways closing maintenance station at John Wayne, CA no longer part of its "core".
US Press shifted work from Los Angeles and San Diego to Portland, “where union rules were almost rational.”
Yahoo opened a data center in Quincy, Washington, a community that now hopes to land high-tech manufacturing.
EIG Global Energy Partners separated from parent company and moved to WA.
Tickets.com shutting down CA operations and moving to TX.
Wells Fargo cut some jobs and shifted them to India. All jobs cut were California.

Also, Amazon.com isn't really happy right now either. They're pretty big.

You can look these up all day. Not all these major ones have "up and left" (many have), but you can definitely see the trending towards leaving. And many are open and public about their dislike of California law and politicians.

This information is not even close to accurate, and is really just a long list of flat out lies.

For example, Facebook has not left California at all. In fact they are in the process of moving their headquarters to a new expanded location in Menlo Park CA. They've been hiring like crazy.

Ebay is still based out of San Jose, and in recent years has been expanding CA operations.

Carl's Jr's headquarters are in Carpinteria, California, and have not left the state.

Denny's left CA two decades ago because it was bought by an outside company not based here, not because of state issues.

If you guys want to argue about this stuff, at least don't lie to try to make your point.

[Uxi]

Given the CA Republican incompetence in winning elections in CA due to stupid stances, CA has pretty much turned into a guaranteed-minority-Republican configuration [and a bunch of Reeps are weak on guns anyway because they're scared of their own shadows].

By that logic, I would expect a faction/wing of "blue dog" libertarian-analogue Democrats with leftist social policy but relatively conservative economics and supportive of the RTKBA to have an opening. But we've seen no sign of that. The State and local Democrats are off the deep end on a trifecta of horrid economics (usually with lip service to "green jobs" tripe, including Moonbeam), loose on social mores and very unfriendly to armed citizens.

[Anchors]

Certain day-labor aspects are leaving, yes. New product creation etc is staying and growing.

The Apple operation you wrote of is a support operation, not new product creation. Apple is creating a hUGE
new headquarters in Cupertino, and development jobs are increasing.

Intel still (and will continue to) designs chips here. Yeah, CA drove the fabs out with toxics laws and capital equipment tax.

Core operations are generally staying here, except for labor-intensive manufacturing.

Amazon 'affiliates' are being disassociated. Amazon warehouses were never in CA anyway and they're outside of Reno (at least for West coast stuff). However their Kindle, etc. developement arm, "Lab126" is in Silicon Valley and is hiring.

Again, there's a difference between high value and low value operations and revenue-per-employee thresholds.

Nobody gives much of a crap that Denny's is leaving - their food sucks so bad and Californians probably have better palates.

And it may be good for some other states to actually get some goods & services being produced so they aren't on so much welfare

And what of all the other companies?
Like the entire aero-space industry?
My point is just that companies are leaving California and are fed up with it just as much as gun owners.

Just because you don't like to eat Denny's doesn't mean their 800 million dollar a year revenue doesn't help the state or hurt it when they leave.

Small businesses are important too, not all the money and work are coming out of Apple.

[choprzrul]

Back to the point of the thread: instead of letters, get neighboring states to issue travel warnings. I could see Arizona and Montana doing it just to spite CA. All it would take is one state and the national media would go nuts.

"Montana is advising its citizens to avoid all travel to California. Citizens are being restricted from exercising their civil rights and are defenseless in the face rising violent crime."

.

[meaty-btz]

This has actually grown into a very good thread.

I am still trying to get the numbers to jive in my head thought because there are some strong contradictions still existing. That meaning I have some issues in my premises that need to be sorted out, because there are no contradictions only problems with initial premise.

One thing that keeps nipping at me is the growth of the Wealth Divide in California. Essentially California appears to be doing what Monterey did as I grew up. Divested itself of the Middle class and only kept lower, low-middle, and Upper divisions of the Social/Wealth brackets. California appears to be losing the middle class as everywhere I look I see the spread of poverty into new areas of cities, yet good jobs still abound here as well as good paying ones.

We have plenty of ulra-wealthy and high middle class above a rotting pile of lower income groups. I have always been a believer that small businesses and the middle class are the backbone of a healthy and growing economy. I don't see where we are headed as being healthy. I suppose the hardest part is getting the numbers adjusted for pay vs COL. Making 80K in SanFran lands you less "position" economically than 80K in Butte County. Making 120+K in Butte County lands you solidly in the Wealthy Bracket. The same would be just middle class in San Fran.

The data posted in this thread is more disturbing to me than any media argument. Mostly because I see trends that seem at odds with other data that is available, such as Job Value of people who have moved out of state. Most are not the poor. The thing about the poor Bill is that they are NOT MOBILE. The middle class is mobile by and large but the poor cannot move. They lack the means to do so and are "stuck". So movement almost always encapsulates the middle class. The wealthy usually have no need to migrate to greener pastures. So if we are hemorrhaging middle class that means 50-90K a year job earners are exiting the state at a rate far greater than those coming in. Meh, I'll get this sorted and get back to you with some new rant or insight!

[CDFingers]

I polled no because every other state hates CA gun laws. They also hate CA's multi ethnicity, its democratic leanings, and the fact that SF is in this state. They would like to see CA fall into the ocean, so my bet is they would not help us at all with out gun laws.

CDFingers

[tabrisnet]

I have to take issue with this part.
Sorry, you're just wrong on this one Bill.

Here is a partial list of companies that have left, are shifting some operations out of CA, or have chosen to create new installations outside of California where they are from (which is obviously more logistically complicated, so there must be a good reason).

Actually Apple has expanded in other states. They built a $1 billion facility in North Carolina as opposed in their home state.

As noted by some others, that was a datacenter. R&D ops remains here.

Boeing has all but completely left (I know someone that works there).
Audix
Cessna Aircraft
Denny's Corporation (yes, Denny's).
Carl's JR HEADQUARTERS, not just a single location. Plus, even if you don't like the food you should want the business.
DuPont
Ebay and Paypal

ebay is still in my [not literally] backyard.

Facebook

Again, more datacentre expansion, no change in R&D.

FedEx closed a facility here.

Ok, so they closed a warehouse/distribution-center... That's hardly interesting.

Fujitsu FronTech North America
Hershey's
IBM
Intel (spent $11 billion in other states, closed plant in CA and said it will never build another here).

Manufacturing is too expensive in California. Especially mfg that requires as much water and power as silicon requires.
This isn't surprising.

R&D is still strong here for Intel.

J.C. Penney
LegalZoom.com (moving to Texas over tax dispute with City of L.A.)
McAfee, Inc. (acknowledged that it intentionally avoids hiring in high-cost, high-tax California. Transferred entire departments elsewhere and saves about 30 to 40% every time the company hires outside of the state. Texas is one of the locations to which McAfee has moved.)

They _just_ opened a new facility in Santa Clara (took over an old Yahoo campus). New signage went up about a year ago on the building, around same time Intel bought them.

Nissan North American moved its entire HQ to Nashville from L.A.
Northrop Grumman Fourth largest Aero/defense company in the world. by 2011 will relocate its Los Angeles H.Q. to the Washington, DC metro area. It’s the last major aerospace company to leave Southern California, the birthplace of the aerospace industry.

Lockheed is still here, albeit in NorCal.

And putting an HQ in DC makes a lot of sense, if your major buyers are the Pentagon et al.

Novellus Inc (based on budget crisis and policies).
Precor (one of the largest manufactures of fitness machines).
U.S Airways closing maintenance station at John Wayne, CA no longer part of its "core".
US Press shifted work from Los Angeles and San Diego to Portland, “where union rules were almost rational.”
Yahoo opened a data center in Quincy, Washington, a community that now hopes to land high-tech manufacturing.

I think you're missing the point of opening datacentres NEAR THE CUSTOMERS.

Yes, Yahoo closed 2 CA datacentres (actually, they're really only closing one and consolidated the other into another nearby).

They're also in the process of closing one on the east coast... and then just brought online one in Buffalo, and another in Nebraska.

Changing from 'rented' datacentres (all of the ones in CA, and the one on the east coast) to OWNED datacentres (buffalo, nebraska, and Quincy WA).

Buying datacentre space in CA is too expensive b/c of land prices, price of electricity, etc.

[Disclosure: I work for Yahoo, thus why I have more detail about them. Nothing of what I've said here is not already publically available].

EIG Global Energy Partners separated from parent company and moved to WA.
Tickets.com shutting down CA operations and moving to TX.
Wells Fargo cut some jobs and shifted them to India. All jobs cut were California.

Also, Amazon.com isn't really happy right now either. They're pretty big.

You can look these up all day. Not all these major ones have "up and left" (many have), but you can definitely see the trending towards leaving. And many are open and public about their dislike of California law and politicians.

[rspar]

People are living CA for jobs in other states that pay the same and can own a home without being house poor. Several of my Engineer friends have done just that. They're quite happy in Texas, Utah, Idaho, etc.. This state is circling the bowl soon the only ones left will be standing in front of HD.

[tabrisnet]

I'm not a native... I grew up in Michigan. I moved out here b/c there were no jobs (in 2007) in Michigan for my skillset. Things are getting better there... but still aren't great.

[Fjold]

There's not a lot of rocket science in which States pay more and receive less in Federal monies.

States with high worker population (especially in hogher paying jobs, like CA) will generate higher federal revenues. States with high populations but a large number of retirees (FL, AZ, etc) will eat a lot of federal subsidies. States with low paying job bases and high welfare (the South) will eat a lot of Federal subsidies.

[choprzrul]

This is exactly why some states would love to tell their citizens to avoid CA, Las Vegas being an exception.

MT, AZ, ID, OR, WA, UT, NM, CO, WY, ND, SD, NE, KS, OK, and TX wouldn't mind a bit if tourism and business development $$ didn't find their way to CA.

Issuing travel warnings would be a good way for those states to help keep those $$ at home.

Those same repreentatives who could care less about our civil rights will sit up and take notice when it directly effects the CA economy. $$ and votes are the only things that politicians care about. Remove one or both and that politician will almost always snap to attention.

"Travel to California is not advised at this time." would draw instant attention in CA and the other states mentioned above. If the statement centered on civil rights, it would become a huge PR coup for us. Lots of leverage to be had there.

.

I polled no because every other state hates CA gun laws. They also hate CA's multi ethnicity, its democratic leanings, and the fact that SF is in this state. They would like to see CA fall into the ocean, so my bet is they would not help us at all with out gun laws.

CDFingers