need a legal opine here... PC12020

[RomanDad]

agree.

now if there is a gain of some kind from that offense [for which you can no longer be charged], can you keep that? Does the State have legal discourse for this...ie taking the ill gotten gains away from me.

The states sole remedy in criminal matters is charging you with a crime.

What you are describing would be a civil matter... Civil causes of action (in this case "conversion") have sols as well....

[dieselpower]

The states sole remedy in criminal matters is charging you with a crime.

What you are describing would be a civil matter... Civil causes of action (in this case "conversion") have sols as well....

ok, so in the case of a manufactured large capacity magazine. .. after 3 years the SOL has run out.

If I am asked by LEO where I got my 4 year old magazines, I can tell him...without fear I manufactured them after 1/1/2000 in violation of PC12020(a)(2) over 3 years ago. He can go ahead and take them if he wants...blah blah blah...but in the end the magazines will be returned to me...they are legal for me to own.

can I do this...will I get the magazines back?

FYI, I am just making this point to further my OP, and this is not advice to anyone nor is this OP about SOL. Just bear with me a second and answer my question.

[RomanDad]

ok, so in the case of a manufactured large capacity magazine. .. after 3 years the SOL has run out.

If I am asked by LEO where I got my 4 year old magazines, I can tell him...without fear I manufactured them after 1/1/2000 in violation of PC12020(a)(2) over 3 years ago. He can go ahead and take them if he wants...blah blah blah...but in the end the magazines will be returned to me...they are legal for me to own.

can I do this...will I get the magazines back?

FYI, I am just making this point to further my OP, and this is not advice to anyone nor is this OP about SOL. Just bear with me a second and answer my question.

Where is that thread about NOT talking to the police?

[dieselpower]

Where is that thread about NOT talking to the police?

I can post the link if you want...thats not the OP here.

My OP was about advice I was given [by people here], that I then passed along to others [thinking it was sound advice]. That advice was, "A Large capacity magazine FOUND after 1/1/2000 is LEGALLY owned."

In fact that is NOT the case. PC12020(b)(16) clearly places the "found" LCM not legally owned and allows LEA to determine legality. They are under no civil, criminal, or custodial order to return that LCM to you. In fact they can actually show the intent of 12020(a)(2) is to limit and restrict ownership, so they have a legal right to deny the return of the LCM.

[kemasa]

Why do you think the SOL stops when out of state? Remember that there are no continuing crimes under the LCM laws (except maybe offering for sale.) This is a serious question and not rhetorical.

-Gene

I don't know that the real issue is a claim that the SOL stops, but when you return you are importing a high capacity magazine, which is a new crime with a new SOL. The magazine was not owned prior to 2000 and is not exempt from leaving the state and coming back in.

Another question regarding the SOL though. Does the SOL start from when the crime was committed or when it was discovered? If a person stole something on 01-Jan-2000, but it was not discovered until 03-Jan-2000 as the business/place was closed, would the SOL run until 01-Jan-2003 or 03-Jan-2003? Just curious.

One other question, why is it that no one talks about (b)(21) and what it means?

[dieselpower]

for 12020(a)(2) when the crime is committed the SOL starts.

12020(b)(21) The sale or purchase of any large-capacity magazine to or by a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071.

PC12071. (a)(1) As used in this chapter, the term "licensee," "person licensed pursuant to Section 12071," or "dealer" means a person who has all of the following:
(A) A valid federal firearms license.
(B) Any regulatory or business license, or licenses, required by local government.
(C) A valid seller's permit issued by the State Board of Equalization.
(D) A certificate of eligibility issued by the Department of Justice pursuant to paragraph (4).
(E) A license issued in the format prescribed by paragraph (6).
(F) Is among those recorded in the centralized list specified in subdivision (e).

[jeep7081]

On this, I agree.

Seems like every time a high cap thread appears, there are a lot of "wink wink" comments regarding the unenforceability of the law.
Yes, you can probably import/manufacture and never be caught as long as you aren't stupid about it.

But everyone has "stupid" moments.

Have to agree Rich. I think the DA would have a hard time proving when you got it. Although, are you willing to spend 3 months in jail to hear case dismissed?

As for stupid, that comes into play when people get mags in guns that weren't made back then There is your wink.

[dieselpower]

Have to agree Rich. I think the DA would have a hard time proving when you got it. Although, are you willing to spend 3 months in jail to hear case dismissed?

As for stupid, that comes into play when people get mags in guns that weren't made back then There is your wink.

see thats what derails the OP here.

There can be no jail time in my OP. You can not even be arrested.

once again, the OP is about telling someone a legal way to own a LCM after 1/1/2000 is "finding", when in fact its not. If I found a LCM on 1/2/2000 over 11 years ago, the second I tell an LEO, "I FOUND IT", he can TAKE IT AWAY, then tell me to pack sand...go away now, he is keeping it because the legislative intent of 12020(a)(2) was to limit ownership post 1/1/2000... and 12020(b)(16) gives him the right to legally do with it what the laws say... and he doesn't feel giving it back to me is proper.

There is no SOL to fall back on...because THERE IS NO CRIME.

[jeep7081]

36 months, clock restarts each time it is imported.

12020(b) provides an exemption to importation for magazines that were legally possessed within California prior to the ban.

Buy a mag in Reno and import it today, you're clear by July 1 2014.
Take that magazine with you on a trip to AZ and bring it home in 2013, the clock restarts and runs out in 2016.
Take that magazine with you on a trip to AZ and bring it home in 2015 (after the original SoL expired), the clock restarts and runs out in 2018. Unless the magazine was lawfully possessed within California prior to 2000, you can not EVER "import" that magazine without starting a fresh importation charge.

It could be argued that using a parts kit to repair an illegally-obtained magazine (even if obtained in 2002) would start the SoL clock on a fresh manufacturing charge.

Are you saying if you went and bought a rebuild kit, keep the receipt. And in 3yrs, you could take it out and use it and nothing could be done? Is that on the criminal side? Can a LEO still take the magazine?

The way it was explained in Criminal Law class years ago, is that the SOL clock stops because LE is unable to detect or nab you for the crime if it is detected. So a person can't commit a crime and simply leave the state until the statute of limitations is up. Call it the "no cheating" clause.

To bottom line it, if a person committed a burglary, and then fled the state with his ill gotten gains, and then returned and flaunted his crime in the face of LE while explaining that he hid in Havasu City for that length of time, under 836 PC he could actually be arrested and detained because the SOL clock stopped until the person returned to California.

It's best to stay in California to not stop the clock then I assume.

[kemasa]

Yes, I am aware of the PC and what it says, which seems to be an interesting issue.

12020(b)(21) The sale or purchase of any large-capacity magazine to or by a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071.

Read also (b).

Do you see any "strings" or limitations?

[dieselpower]

The alternate position you're worrying about contradicts the entire legislative intent of grandfathering pre-2000 magazines. Square your argument with all the pre-2000 magazines I currently own and get back to me.

Also, the statute of limitations is 36 months here because, since there is no possession ban, it's not a continuing violation. The only things you can be convicted of is importation, selling, or manufacturing in the prior 36 months.

-Gene

Sorry Gene blew right past your comment.

1) All magazine that you "found" pre1/1/2000, are moot since PC12020(a)(2) states after 1/1/2000. They are legally yours. Since the law states 1/1/2000, that is the only point in which LEA can argue 12020(b)(16) allows them to withhold the LCM due to legislative intent after that date. What happened before that date is not within the law.

If they added Ford trucks to 12020(a), manufacturing or importing as restricted, 12020 (b)(16) would give LEA the right to take away any Ford Truck found after the date they were added to 12020(a).

Again the legislative intent was to limit/restrict ownership post 1/1/2000.

2)There is no SOL on 12020(b)(16) because no crime is committed. Its legal to find magazines, its legal to possess found magazines, its legal to take those found magazine to LEA...and they then have jurisdiction in disposition of them...they can deny giving them back to you.

Its the same as Coke's dirk 12020(a)(4) threadjack. I can carry a concealed dirk as long as I am doing it in accordance with 12020(b)(16). Then LEA can give the dirk back to me if they want, since there is no legislative intent to limit or restrict dirk ownership. They could also keep it at that point if they wanted even though there is NO law against owning a dirk...just CCW without permit.

[dieselpower]

Yes, I am aware of the PC and what it says, which seems to be an interesting issue.



Read also (b).

Do you see any "strings" or limitations?

Sorry I am not seeing it. 12020 is allowing licensed person in 12071 to buy & sell LCM IAW both 12020 & 12071.

still my OP was on LEA keeping your "found" LCM, and "finding" is not a 100% legal means of ownership post 1/1/2000.

[Cokebottle]

@Coke...I still do not see what a screwdriver identified as a listed item has to do with a person finding an LCM, This is an idiotic course to take this debate, but since you can not separate a screwdriver from a LCM...here goes....screwdriver, toothpick, cane sword, LCM... it doesn't matter.

The entire debate is idiotic because you are claiming that the existence of an exemption to a prohibition that does not exist in fact creates an unlawful condition.

Finding an LCM is no more or less illegal than finding a knife, screwdriver, or penny.
There is no legal requirement defined that REQUIRES that any of those items be turned over to LE.

The (b)(16) exemption simply provides for immunity from prosecution should someone be caught in possession of an item that is prohibited to possess if they are in the process of turning it over to LE.

(b)(16) states "found" because it would be unlawful for one to purchase or otherwise receive such an item unless they were LE involved in an undercover investigation. If "found" were not specified, then "Gecko45" could take it upon himself to perform his own criminal investigation, make a bunch of illegal purchases, and turn the (now useless) "evidence" over to the PD.

It is not illegal to possess an LCM, knife, screwdriver, or penny, therefore there is no requirement that they be turned over to LE if they are found.


OTOH, SBR, Nunchucks, sap, throwing stars, etc... those are all listed under 12020(a)(1) as being unlawful to POSSESS, therefore, the 12020(b)(16) exemption is needed to shield the civilian from prosecution while in the process of turning the items over to LE.


Not illegal to possess = not illegal to possess.

[Cokebottle]

Its the same as Coke's dirk 12020(a)(4) threadjack. I can carry a concealed dirk as long as I am doing it in accordance with 12020(b)(16). Then LEA can give the dirk back to me if they want, since there is no legislative intent to limit or restrict dirk ownership. They could also keep it at that point if they wanted even though there is NO law against owning a dirk...just CCW without permit.

You completely missed the point.

12020(a)(4) states that is it illegal to CONCEAL a dirk or dagger.

Therefore, "dirk or dagger" is now listed in 12020(a).

12020(b)(16) does not provide an exemption for carrying a concealed dirk or dagger for the purposes of turning it in.

12020(b)(16) specifically protects someone from prosecution should they be found in possession of any items listed in 12020(a)(1).
12020(a)(2) through (a)(4) are by wording of the statutes not applicable to the exemption because possession of the items listed in 12020(a)(2)-(4) is not illegal.

[kemasa]

Sorry I am not seeing it. 12020 is allowing licensed person in 12071 to buy & sell LCM IAW both 12020 & 12071.

Read:

12020(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the following:

Now read 12020(b)(21) as previously quoted. Do you see any restrictions or strings? It allows a firearms dealer (12071) to sell a LCM and it is not illegal as 12020(a) vaporizes due to (b) and (b)(21). If (a)(2) does not apply, then where is the restriction of who can buy said LCM?

still my OP was on LEA keeping your "found" LCM, and "finding" is not a 100% legal means of ownership post 1/1/2000.

Quite true. You should not tell them you "found" it or anything other than you have legal possession of it. You should not admit to importing it or buying it or anything else.