How is "SKS w/ Detachable Magazine" still illegal?

[IrishPirate]

the SKS is a classic featureless rifle. Featureless rifles can have detachable magazines. Why is the SKS still on the R.R.A.W. List??? I thought the list was also supposed to be specific....SKS w/ detachable mag is pretty broad sweeping. Has anyone tried to fight this and it got shot down??? or are we still in the middle of that chess game???

[bwiese]

It's illegal because they said it's illegal.

It was part of the Roberti-Roos list created in 1989 (probably worked on at the tail of 1988). It's one of the few (only?) guns in Roberti-Roos that is defined as banned by a feature and not a make/model. It is likely they wanted to specifically ban the SKS-D "cowboy" guns using the detachable AK47 magazines, or some legislator had seen 'dress up' SKS guns that looked like AKs.

The late 90s (1997?) "SKS fiasco" - involving antigun Republican Attorney General Dan Lungren - finally got to a cleanup stage where there was a buyback of problem guns. The SKS types involved in the fixup/buyback are further clarified in 12288.

But in general do NOT have a true SKS rifle with any type of detachable magazine - whether or not it's an AK47 mag, or some removable TAPCO "duckbill" type.

The Beretta BM59 - essentially an M1 Garand adapted for detachable magazine and a 'transition gun' to M14/M1A - is also banned even though it's a 'conventional rifle' with no pistol grip or folder stock.

SB23 came along in 1999 (a predecessor that failed occurred in 1988) and added bans on certain combinations of 'characteristic features'. It became active in 2000 even though regulatory definitions were not in place til late in the year. It did not really change Roberti-Roos status and was just an additional provision.

Now, not all Simonov-pattern rifles are SKSes - even if they are colloquially referred to as such. The 2001 Harrott decision requires specific make/model bans, and there are a variety of origins/manufacturers. The term "SKS" cannot be regarded as referring to a 'series' due to this, and would in fact refer to its base instance (the Russian SKS). Other rifles by China are likely SKSes, with possible exceptions for rare E. German and N. Korean guns. I believe the Albanian SKS has its own make/model too. [A plain-Jane non-Russian-origin SKS without any markings may well be defendable as a non-SKS.]

Of special importance is the common "Yugo SKS" - which is really a Zastava Arms M59 carbine or M59/66 carbine. This rifle is not legally an SKS due to Harrott (no more so than any off-list Stag 15 or CMMG15 or Ameetec or Calguns-marked receiver/rifle being an AR15 series member).

As such, a non-SKS rifle like the Yugo Zastava M59(/66) can have a detachable magazine. A separate caveat regarding Federal matters of domestic parts content/ 'sporting use' in 18 USC 922(r) / 27 CFR 478.39 must be separately complied with and addressed thru the 10-or-less "key foreign parts" game using "compliance parts".]


[For a variety of reasons, we really DO want the SKS-with-detachable-magazine to stay on the books until the CA AWB is taken down. Such a ban, in cooperation with regulatory definitions, makes possible the whole OLL + BulletButton configuration. As my fellow CGF Board member Brett Thomas (the_quark) says, "The SKS is the rifle that saved California."]

[Anchors]

Technically only "SKS" models are illegal right? Just like the Yugo's aren't actually SKS.
Or am I wrong?
If I am wrong, how can they ban an entire style of firearm without getting shot down just like the AK/AR ban got limited to listing specific models/manufacturers?

[IrishPirate]

Technically only "SKS" models are illegal right? Just like the Yugo's aren't actually SKS.
Or am I wrong?
If I am wrong, how can they ban an entire style of firearm without getting shot down just like the AK/AR ban got limited to listing specific models/manufacturers?

that's kinda what i was thinking...but i wasn't sure if the Yugos were actually SKS' or not according to the letter of the law.

[Anchors]

that's kinda what i was thinking...but i wasn't sure if the Yugos were actually SKS' or not according to the letter of the law.

Now I think I remember. Yugos do not have SKS stamped on them and you CAN have detachable magazines with them.

ETA: Yes. The make and model are Zastava Arms M59 and M59/66. They are not SKS.


ETA2: LOL is it bad that I have to quote myself from an old post and that I don't know this by heart anymore?
I need a law degree to continue owning firearms in CA...

It doesn't matter.
If it has a detachable magazine OR an aftermarket fixed magazine that holds more than 10-rounds it is an Assault Weapon under CA law.
It needs a normal, fixed 10-round magazine to be compliant.

Now if it were a Yugo, Romanian, or Polish SKS it could have all the detachable magazines in the world on it (as long as it didn't have a flash suppressor/thumbhole stock).
This is because Chinese and Russian SKS are the only ones actually called "SKS"
Where as the other countries didn't name them the "SKS"
So they are not "SKS with detachable magazine."
They are "whatever" with a detachable magazine.

Just like a manufacturer's "AR15" lowers are Assault Weapons in CA, but the same company has the same lower, but names it "CA15" (or anything except "AR15"). So it is legal.

Basically if you had an SKS, but its origin and model name were "Antarctic FishMagnet-47@gmail.com" it would be legal with detachable mags.

So technically they are listing the specific model. Model: SKS. Banned if it happens to have detachable magazine.
The confusion comes in that people assume the law reads: SKS-style. Banned if it happens to have detachable magazine.

[bwiese]

It took a bit of time to post, please see my post above (2nd item in thread)

[IrishPirate]

Thanks for the edit bill, that helps clear things up I'm planning on getting a Yugo soon and happened to see some SKS rebuild kits for sale and it got me thinking, then i checked the flow chart and got confused. I'd probably never put a detachable on my Yugo, but like the idea that it wouldn't shouldn't land me in jail...

[bwiese]

Thanks for the edit bill, that helps clear things up I'm planning on getting a Yugo soon and happened to see some SKS rebuild kits for sale and it got me thinking, then i checked the flow chart and got confused. I'd probably never put a detachable on my Yugo, but like the idea that it wouldn't shouldn't land me in jail...

From a sheer practical standpoint, the SKS is a very good design. It doesn't need to be butchered, and can be top-loaded nicely.

I also have a relatively low opinion of quite a few of the conversion parts out there and believe in keeping things as stock as possible.

Regardless of legal issues, a Yugo "SKS" M59 is gonna run better with its original parts than cheap aftermarket parts. Magazine quality can affect feed reliability.

And while police/CHP etc are starting to understand OLL stuff on ARs and AKs, I would encourage anyone doing such D.M. work on a Yugo M59 carbine to be cleancut and verbally agile under during of a traffic stop and know the above book, chapter and verse.

[IrishPirate]

I agree with everything you just said.....damn law maker logic just got my brain confuzzled and had to get the truth before my head blew up. I understand it now, and i don't plan on having any issues with LEO because i plan on keeping my SKS original. but shooting 20/40/75 rounds in the NV desert without reloading might be fun.....

Thanks again!

[Anchors]

I also forgot about how the SKS is essentially what provided the "spark" that created the bullet-button and, in turn, the OLL movement as a whole.

Awesome!

[wash]

I was just reading about home built Galill rewelds.

I wonder, if you took a torch cut de-miled Russian SKS (no longer a firearm) and rewelded to make it a homebuilt XYZ, could add a detachable magazine?

Not that I would do it, or think that someone should do it but the fact that you could have two ~identical guns and one would be an "assault weapon" but the other is not points out the absurdity of the law.

[oni.dori]

Ok, so to make sure I am 100% clear on this, you may have a Russian/former USSR SKS rifle, so long as the magazine/feeding system is in 100% original configuration (fixed 10-round mag, no detacheable mags); but as long as your SKS pattern rifle is a non-Russian/former USSR made rifle, you MAY have detacheable mags on it?

[Anchors]

Ok, so to make sure I am 100% clear on this, you may have a Russian/former USSR SKS rifle, so long as the magazine/feeding system is in 100% original configuration (fixed 10-round mag, no detacheable mags); but as long as your SKS pattern rifle is a non-Russian/former USSR made rifle, you MAY have detacheable mags on it?

Yes. Except that Chinese SKS are also part of that. Just Chinese and Soviet.

You also can't buy the fixed magazines that are over 10 rounds. If you wanted to use magazines over ten rounds, they would have to be detachable AK magazines that you owned before 2000.

This is because ANY fixed magazine in a rifle that holds more than 10 rounds is an AW.
Only detachable mags can have 11+ rounds.

[Quiet]

Yes. Except that Chinese SKS are also part of that. Just Chinese and Soviet.

Not just Soviet/Russian and Chinese.
Add Albanian, East German and North Korean.

[oni.dori]

I would just like to point out that I just checked on the CA DOJ Buereau of Firearms website, and they also list Zastava SKS Carbines 59/66 as a destructive device as well.