Gun Sale Denied by Owner of Gun Shop

[dieselpower]

Wrong.

If you buy a gun for anybody, you are guilty of a felony. It doesn't matter if they're allowed to own the gun or not.

(not sure if anybody corrected you yet)

WRONG, I can buy a gun for another person...where do you get that...???

I can and have bought guns as gifts for others.

[Uriah02]

Now you're saying it was to buy it for yourself and not for him.Either way you're trying to do something illegal.
A straw purchase for him is illegal and owning a gun in the same home is illegal as well if my understanding of the law is correct.

It is not illegal to own a gun in the same house as a felon, but the felon/prohibited person cannot have access to the weapon.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=212782

LuckyEnough it is unreasonable to want to sue a retailer because they don't want to take a risk. They are doing their job. It sounds shaddy on the forum, our rights are so easily lost (as noted by your BF's retraining order) that neither you or the business can be too careful.
You keep saying you want to buy it as an investment. That is fine, the issue is that firearm is slightly more deadly than a rare coin, stamp, or other antique investment.

[PayThePrice]

[Tarn_Helm]

Flip it around.

I had something very disturbing happen to me today and wanted to get others opinions. I am a woman who has a significant other who had a domestic violence misdemeanor from about ten years ago. The restaining order was an act of retaliation from a broken up relationship. I have known about it. At the time (and to this day) he never realized the serious ramifications that came out of allowing that to stand without a fight. So recently he found a gun that he wanted to purchase as an investment. The DOJ denied him and by phone would not tell him the reason so he requested the paperwork to find out. I indicated that I would buy the gun. So we went today for me to purchase it. Understand that I have absolutely no blemishes to prohibit me from buying that gun and the employee at the shop said to come down with my handgun safety certificate and license to purchase. At the store he advised me that it was a felony to buy a gun on behalf of someone else and asked did I understand. I said I did. I expected them to submit my information for the 10 day check. Instead the owner came out of the back and told me that he would not sell the gun because my guy had expressed an interest in it. and he was denied. I told him that I felt that I was now the one being discriminated against and had every right to purchase it. He would not sell it to me. I'm very angry about this denial of my 2nd amendment rights and his assumption of of the role of judge and jury that I'm somehow guilty of something by association. Is this worth pursuing with an attorney? I have the means and am a lady with a sterling reputation and live by the word integrity. This hits me at my very core and feel it is not right. When I came home tonight and started researching DOJ reasons for firearms possession and ban I found that my guy is banned FOR LIFE from possessing or buying a firearm because of that restraining order. He is absolutely speechless over something that he had no idea was transpiring at the time of the misdemeanor. There was no proof of any harassment or threat from him to this person and the judge said that "to play it safe, he was leaving the restraining order in place but there was no ramification to him to do this". Obviously this wasn't the case. He will be contacting an attorney. Just so you know, my guy has been nothing but a sweetheart in the years I've known him. Not a shred of violence nor have I ever felt threatened. I believe totally that the restraining order was totally bogus. So what say this forum about my issue with the gun shop?

Flip it around.

You are the gun shop owner.

A pair of strangers come in seeking to do what you sought to do.

Remember, you are in business to make money in a business that is inherently HIGHLY LEGALLY RISKY--ONE INNOCENT MISTAKE AND THE GUBMINT SHUTS YOU DOWN, IMPRISONS YOU, AND PERMANENTLY TERMINATES YOUR OWN 2nd AMENDMENT RIGHTS.

Also, any business proprietor may refuse service--for any reason or no reason--and you would stand on that right as well if you were the owner.

Would you risk your freedom, your livelihood, and your life (people get murdered in prison all the time) just to prove that you believe that two total strangers are not trying to do a straw purchase?

You seem like a sensible, cautious, thoughtful person.

I don't think you would.

Neither would the gun shop owner in question.

Your s.o. needs to clean up his legal record somehow, if possible.

Sad situation.

This is exactly why I am a single issue voter who believes that the entire country should be under a "no permit needed law" for both open and/or concealed carry, and that we need to enact legal reform in the area of misdemeanor domestic violence vis a vis firearms and other legal weapons.

Good luck.

I think it is safe to say for all of us that "we feel your pain," as Slick Willy would put it.

[Cokebottle]

OP, you really need to realize that your boyfriend was convicted of a misdemeanor of domestic violence. That means that something happened which caused him to admit guilt

Which all too often means that the person arrested doesn't know what will happen to his gun rights, and he listens to the DA when he says "Plead guilty to the misdemeanor charges and this will all go away without you needing an attorney. Hold out, and I'll press felony charges and it's going to cost you $100,000 in attorney fees and you'll lose your right to own a gun."

Sadly, this very thing probably happened to thousands of people prior to the passage of Lautenberg.

[G-forceJunkie]

I don't think so, you can buy a firearm for someone else. I agree, its a grey area they put you dealers in, but this to me says it ok. I am quoting from ATF's Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide (2005 edition, page 166) says:

An example of an illegal straw pur- chase is as follows: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. If Mr. Jones fills out Form 4473, he violates the law by falsely stating that he is the actual buyer of the firearm. Mr. Smith also violates the law because he has unlawfully aided and abetted or caused the making of false statements on the form.
Where a person purchases a firearm with the intent of making a gift of the firearm to another person, the person making the purchase is indeed the true purchaser. There is no straw purchaser in these instances. In the above exam- ple, if Mr. Jones had bought a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Smith as a birthday present, Mr. Jones could lawfully have completed Form 4473. The use of gift certificates would also not fall within the category of straw pur- chases. The person redeeming the gift certificate would be the actual purchaser of the firearm and would be properly reflected as such in the dealer's records.

So buying a gun for your buddy: Illegal. Buying a gun to give to your buddy as a birthday present: legal. As would buying a gun for your wife.

Straw purchase. She was not the actual buyer, you were.

And that is what I hate about this whole straw purchase bull crap. How many times do men come into the store with their wives and they do all of the paperwork and then the wife writes the check? Would an overzealous agent try to write me up for that?

I agree that the 4473 says, "You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person." and in your case the wife is acquiring it for herself. However, when she comes in and does all of the paperwork and you hand the dealer the money, tell me that-that doesn't sound like a straw purchase? Unless I have sold the husband guns before, how do I know he is or isn't a prohibited person. Even if you explain you are husband and wife, am I supposed to believe you? Will an agent give a damn?

I really, really hate the position straw purchasing puts a dealer in. It can be such a gray area that a smart dealer won't ever take a chance. And that dealer is going to piss off some customers and lose sales.

I am going to get audited again before too long and I am going to grill my agent on straw purchase scenarios.

[johnthomas]

OP, the court records are public. You can go to the court house and read the case. See what really happened. It would behoove you to know, really. It very well may be that this is a case of a woman scorn. But........... it wouldn't hurt to check for your sake.

[Mstrty]

Dont take insult to my post. I was just typing my thoughts without running them through any filter.

The DOJ denied him and by phone would not tell him the reason so he requested the paperwork to find out. I indicated that I would buy the gun (if you buy this gun for him you become a felon). So we went today for me to purchase it.
(if you buy this gun for him you become a felon)Understand that I have absolutely no blemishes to prohibit me from buying that gun (if you buy this gun for him you become a felon)and the employee at the shop said to come down with my handgun safety certificate and license to purchase. At the store he advised me that it was a felony to buy a gun on behalf of someone else and asked did I understand. Clearly you dont understand! I said I did. I expected them to submit my information for the 10 day check. Instead the owner came out of the back and told me that he would not sell the gun because my guy had expressed an interest in it. and he was denied. (good for him! at least he understands the law!)I told him that I felt that I was now the one being discriminated against and had every right to purchase it. He would not sell it to me. I'm very angry about this denial of my 2nd amendment rights and his assumption of of the role of judge and jury that I'm somehow guilty of something by association. Is this worth pursuing with an attorney? (spend your attorney money working on his record not your unjustified rant with this store!) I have the means and am a lady with a sterling reputation and live by the word integrity. Guess its a good thing the store stopped your from commiting a felony. This hits me at my very core and feel it is not right. When I came home tonight and started researching DOJ reasons for firearms possession and ban I found that my guy is banned FOR LIFE from possessing or buying a firearm because of that restraining order. Yes he is!

[hakcenter]

What I don't understand that is going on in this thread.. is where everyone else reading what the OP said. Then jumps in thinking their doing a straw hat ??

Has the OP even indicated that they were going to hand the gun over after purchase ? To me it just looks like shes going to buy the gun cause she wants it, it is just a boyfriend, I think she's had a few. Obviously shes a strong woman already owning a few of her own, if/when her boyfriend becomes clear to own/purchase again maybe she'll do a PPTP then, if she even wants to ?

I mean really, no one here needs to jump off the boat, regardless of whatever assumptions you want to make against the OP, it is not illegal for her to purchase the gun. I would agree there to be a discrimination case on the permiss that regardless of her relationship with someone who prior wanted to own the gun, that she somehow now is incapable of purchasing it for herself.

[Markus]

Yes its not illegal for the OP to purchase the gun if she is truly honest about keeping the gun for herself. However the impression she left on the gun shop owners is that of someone purchasing something for another who was not legally allowed to. Lets use an example here if say an underage kid came in to buy booze from a liquor store and got denied then came back with another older kid to buy the same booze they would also get denied because it looks like they are purchasing an item that is illegal for the other to own. So unfortunately you shot yourself in the foot by bringing your hubby with you and you dont really have any case to sue as far as I can tell.

[travelshot]

What I don't understand that is going on in this thread.. is where everyone else reading what the OP said. Then jumps in thinking their doing a straw hat ??

Has the OP even indicated that they were going to hand the gun over after purchase ? To me it just looks like shes going to buy the gun cause she wants it, it is just a boyfriend, I think she's had a few. Obviously shes a strong woman already owning a few of her own, if/when her boyfriend becomes clear to own/purchase again maybe she'll do a PPTP then, if she even wants to ?

I mean really, no one here needs to jump off the boat, regardless of whatever assumptions you want to make against the OP, it is not illegal for her to purchase the gun. I would agree there to be a discrimination case on the permiss that regardless of her relationship with someone who prior wanted to own the gun, that she somehow now is incapable of purchasing it for herself.

A PPTP sounds kinky. Can one of the Ps wear the straw hat?

[GuyW]

....a significant other who had a domestic violence misdemeanor from about ten years ago. The restaining order was an act of retaliation from a broken up relationship.

....I found that my guy is banned FOR LIFE from possessing or buying a firearm because of that restraining order. He is absolutely speechless over something that he had no idea was transpiring at the time of the misdemeanor. There was no proof of any harassment or threat from him to this person and the judge said that "to play it safe, he was leaving the restraining order in place but there was no ramification to him to do this".

?? Restraining Orders don't last 10 years, and a Restraining order does not prohibit guns for life.

.

[Mstrty]

What I don't understand that is going on in this thread.. is where everyone else reading what the OP said. Then jumps in thinking their doing a straw hat ??

Has the OP even indicated that they were going to hand the gun over after purchase ? To me it just looks like shes going to buy the gun cause she wants it, it is just a boyfriend, I think she's had a few. Obviously shes a strong woman already owning a few of her own, if/when her boyfriend becomes clear to own/purchase again maybe she'll do a PPTP then, if she even wants to ?

I mean really, no one here needs to jump off the boat, regardless of whatever assumptions you want to make against the OP, it is not illegal for her to purchase the gun. I would agree there to be a discrimination case on the permiss that regardless of her relationship with someone who prior wanted to own the gun, that she somehow now is incapable of purchasing it for herself.

The OP never said anything about wanting this or any gun until her BF was denied. So yes Im correct in my statement that she intended to commit a felony by purchasing "this" gun. To purchase "this" gun (which is what her post was about) is proof of intent to a straw purchase.
She is free to walk into this or any gun store and purchase any gun she wants and intends for her. If a gun she wants it to give her BF access to "this" or any gun she is by all definitions committing a felony.

[zfields]

These guys even deliver

[THT]

LuckyEnough, you sound on the up and up but your situation was described nearly to a "T" last week when I sat down with an ATF investigator, talking about straw purchases.