Gun Sale Denied by Owner of Gun Shop

[Cokebottle]

He's not my hubby. I'm a widow. In that manner I don't have to ask for permission or beg for forgiveness. I like it that way. I'm also smart enough to know that there is a third party impartial forum (called the courts) who can rule on these things. My guy can hire his own attorney to deal with his issues and I'll take up my own. I'll be seeing an attorney next week to see if I have a discrimination case. I'll keep y'all posted. Thanks for the opinions.

You don't have a discrimination case.
You have a dealer denying the sale of a firearm that he believed was A) Not being purchased for the purchaser's use and B) Being purchased for illegal transfer to a prohibited person.

Given your description in the first post, I can't think of any gun shop that would move forward with the sale.

Can you walk into another gun shop without your Hubby/BF/cohabitant and purchase the same gun? Of course.

BTW: The courts have ruled that living with a prohibited person can not preclude YOU from owning a gun, BUT, all of your guns must be stored in a way that the prohibited person does not have any access to them... IE: In a safe where only you have the combination, in a locked room or locker where only you have the key, etc....

If there is any way that he can access your guns, you are both guilty of felonies.

Yes, the right thing to do is for him to hire an attorney and take the steps needed to clear his record.

[Cokebottle]

A straw purchase for him is illegal and owning a gun in the same home is illegal as well if my understanding of the law is correct.
.....
if you are currently commiting a crime by having guns in the same house as a felon.

It is legal if he does not have access to her guns.

[Cokebottle]

I've worked in construction for about a million years and therefore, know men better then women. I tend to have some of the same opinions and after 30 years of marriage and now being a merry widow I found that I like the freedom to do as I please. That includes driving a Harley Davidson Truck, owning a boat with a Corvette engine, paying my own way and calling my own shots.

I think I'm in love

[tenpercentfirearms]

Here is the Don't Lie for the Other Guy website.

http://www.dontlie.org/index.cfm

Unfortunately the OP just learned a valuable lesson. If you go into a gun shop with someone and they get denied, don't return looking to buy the same gun. Even if the dealer said it was OK and even if you thought it was OK, the dealer did the right thing in not going through with the sale.

This is an important lesson for everyone. Do not go into a gun shop and talk about buying guns for other people. Unfortunately a dealer is a difficult decision of having to stop a sale under any hint of straw purchasing. It sucks for the dealer as we don't want to be police, we want to be salespeople and make money. However, if a customer starts talking and says the wrong thing, we have to stop the sale.

In the end it is still your felony if you purchase the firearm for someone else (if it isn't a gift). However, gun shops can be shut down for knowingly allowing straw purchases, so the gun shop did the right thing.

One more unfortunate thing is this is definitely going to impact female purchasers more than male purchasers. Nothing reeks of a straw sale more than a man standing behind a lady at the counter. Forgetting the specifics of this example where they knew the other man was prohibited, if you have a man come into the shop to help you look for guns, you might want to straight up explain to the dealer what is going on.

Woman: "I am new to guns and I brought my friend along to help me look. We are well aware of what a straw purchase is and he is going to help me pick a firearm out for myself. This firearm is for me and me only. Please don't assume this is a straw purchase because my male friend is helping me be a smart buyer."

Some shops might kick you out anyway, but I probably wouldn't and would feel better about selling you a gun instead of denying you.

Education is the key and unfortunately your education occurred in a frustrating and difficult matter. However, now you know.

And to anyone reading this, that dealer did nothing wrong. Even if they said they could do it and they changed their mind, they did the right thing.

[Cokebottle]

Wrong.

If you buy a gun for anybody, you are guilty of a felony. It doesn't matter if they're allowed to own the gun or not.

(not sure if anybody corrected you yet)

Not in all cases.

You may purchase the gun for someone else as a gift, and if the recipient is your son/daughter/father/mother/grandfather/grandmother, it does not need to be again transferred at an FFL... simple Operation of Law and $19 for a handgun, and "Merry Christmas, enjoy your new gun" for a rifle.

If the recipient is not an immediate family member, then it would either have to be transferred at an FFL, or the recipient could accompany the buyer to the FFL for the initial DROS. That is exactly what I did when I bought my wife her .38.
She filled out the paperwork, but I paid the man.

[Cokebottle]

I bought a gun for my Dad but he was not a prohibited person. I gifted him the firearm after I had purchased it myself. This is Missouri though so you guys have a lot more annoying red tape.

That would still be legal in California.
No paperwork needed for a rifle/shotgun.
For a handgun, it's one form and $19, done by mail.

[tenpercentfirearms]

That is exactly what I did when I bought my wife her .38. She filled out the paperwork, but I paid the man.

Straw purchase. She was not the actual buyer, you were.

And that is what I hate about this whole straw purchase bull crap. How many times do men come into the store with their wives and they do all of the paperwork and then the wife writes the check? Would an overzealous agent try to write me up for that?

I agree that the 4473 says, "You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person." and in your case the wife is acquiring it for herself. However, when she comes in and does all of the paperwork and you hand the dealer the money, tell me that-that doesn't sound like a straw purchase? Unless I have sold the husband guns before, how do I know he is or isn't a prohibited person. Even if you explain you are husband and wife, am I supposed to believe you? Will an agent give a damn?

I really, really hate the position straw purchasing puts a dealer in. It can be such a gray area that a smart dealer won't ever take a chance. And that dealer is going to piss off some customers and lose sales.

I am going to get audited again before too long and I am going to grill my agent on straw purchase scenarios.

[c good]

I had something similar happen. No restraining orders involved, no restrictions, etc. I walked up, saw a nice, hard to find revolver and was holding it when another sales guy walked up and said, "Oh, I'm sorry, that's on hold for someone!" I said yes, it's being held by me. He said he had forgotten to pull it and that it was to be held for another customer. I found out later it was set aside for one of his buddies. Now that's something to be upset about. Nothing I could do legally. I just don't shop there anymore! Bottom line is, they can sell or not sell to anyone they choose (as long as the person is legally qualified to own a firearm). c good

[zenmastar]

I do not believe any misdemeanor should cause an individual to lose their 2nd amendment rights. But, I agree with the gun store and he did the right thing operating under today's laws.

Please help and vote for pro-gun politicians!

[CHS]

He had a restraining order issued by a vindictive ex that garnered a misdemeanor and didn't even know about any of this stuff concerning a gun purchase.

Please read and re-read the below statement:

You seem to be using "misdemeanor" and "restraining order" as if they meant the same thing. They do not.

A misdemeanor conviction would have occurred because your SO plead guilty in a criminal proceeding or was found guilty following a trial.

A restraining order is typically issued in a civil court - in California, the restraining order cannot issue based on "no proof". It may be that you or your SO don't find the evidence credible, but to issue an RO without supporting testimony or an affidavit would be a very basic procedural error which is very, very unlikely.

It seems to me the first thing you need to do is to figure out exactly what happened 10 years ago.

EXACTLY.

OP, you really need to realize that your boyfriend was convicted of a misdemeanor of domestic violence. That means that something happened which caused him to admit guilt, or be convicted by a jury. The restraining order really has nothing to do with it. Stop focusing on the restraining order, and find out why he was CONVICTED. It may turn out that he's not telling you the full truth.

Wrong.

If you buy a gun for anybody, you are guilty of a felony. It doesn't matter if they're allowed to own the gun or not.

You're wrong too. You are legally allowed to purchase guns for other people as legitimate gifts. However, any other scenario is not legal.

[Shady]

something seems fishy to me

[tyrist]

To the Op please use paragraphs next time. Try to be very specific because the law is very specific and we could give you better answers. Also try to leave out unimportant information when asking the question.

From reading your paragraph I believe you attempted to complete a straw purchase and must commend the business owner for denying the transaction. It is obvious the owner cares about keeping his business and following the law even if it costs him money.

[dieselpower]

If you are a firearms owner. If you are truly a collector, shooter and are purchasing this firearm for you. Then you should be able to convince the owner of that.

If this is all true than you were not breaking the law. You needed to explain it better to the shop.

I met a guy once who's girlfriend was a convicted felon. No one cared about that when he bought firearms...Seems there could be a double standard here.

[Mulay El Raisuli]

I'm taking the position that the OP is being completely truthful & as accurate as she can be.

But, even with all of that, the store owner did absolutely NOTHING wrong. Because even with everything being exactly as described, this sale absolutely reeks & he's under ZERO obligation to take any chances for her.

I'll join the chorus: fix your boyfriends problems. If that special gun is still for sale when you get all of that done, great! If not, chalk it up to a learning experience.


The Raisuli

[Kharn]

The ATF tells FFLs to deny every sale they even feel funny about and your situation, as described, is the classic definition of a straw purchase. I would have denied the sale as well.