Can I OC Loaded on My Son's Property with His Permission

[Rugerdaddy]

My assumption is that I can OC loaded on my own property, right? Then, two questions. Really the same I believe...

1. Can I invite a friend on my property, and can he OC loaded on my property with my permission?

2. Can my son invite me onto his property, and allow me to OC loaded?

I realize the owner's permission is not the core of the law, but I add that to make sure it's understood. Thanks for your opinions, and can anyone tell me where to find the applicable statute?

[GrizzlyGuy]

Yes, but only in parts of the private property where you can legally carry loaded. See "Semi Public Places Restrictions" here for more info on where you can and can't.

ETA: You asked about the applicable statute, it is 12031. See here:

(h) Nothing in this section shall prevent any person engaged in
any lawful business, including a nonprofit organization, or any
officer, employee, or agent authorized by that person for lawful
purposes connected with that business, from having a loaded firearm
within the person's place of business, or any person in lawful
possession of private property from having a loaded firearm on that
property.

For the case of private property that you do not own, you "are in lawful possession of private property" if you have the owner's permission to be there.

[Turo]

Read up on the Wiki, it has information pertinent to your situation:
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/in...oncealed_Carryhttp://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/in...oncealed_Carry

Basically, if your, or your son's property is actually private and you have a fence enclosing the property, then yes you can carry in any manner you'd like there (Loaded open carry, loaded concealed carry, unloaded carry, etc.) But if you are in a place that is accessible to the public (ie. no fence or wall separating you from public property) Then you're in a public place in regards to carrying.

EDIT: Curse my slow typing! GrizzlyGuy got it before me.

[Connor P Price]

I don't believe it's any different than being in your own home as long as you have permission.

[Purple K]

Don't forget about the 1,000 foot school zone.

[Rugerdaddy]

Thanks to you all. The statute states (italics mine):

Nothing in this section shall prevent any person engaged in
any lawful business, including a nonprofit organization, or any
officer, employee, or agent authorized by that person for lawful
purposes connected with that business, from having a loaded firearm
within the person's place of business, or any person in lawful
possession of private property from having a loaded firearm on that
property.

I am not in lawful possession of my son's property. To me that sounds as though I can not carry on his property, even with permission.

Also, I live on five acres which has no fence along the frontage, and a driveway leading about 250 feet to my house. Does that mean I can not carry in my front yard?

[GrizzlyGuy]

Thanks to you all. The statute states (italics mine):

I am not in lawful possession of my son's property. To me that sounds as though I can not carry on his property, even with permission.

Read the rest of the wiki article that I linked to. Gene wrote it so I think you can place a high degree of faith in it. For example:

People who are not otherwise prohibited from possessing firearms can carry loaded concealed firearms in homes the own or rent and on any other private property that they "lawfully possess." Lawful possession is generally regarded to include carrying on private property where you have the resident or owner's permission to so carry.

Also, I live on five acres which has no fence along the frontage, and a driveway leading about 250 feet to my house. Does that mean I can not carry in my front yard?

That's also covered in the article, jump down to this part. For example:

As such, the current jurisprudence in California is that if the public can come unmolested or unchallenged into an area, you can not conceal or openly carry a loaded firearm in that area unless you have a specific and immediate need to defend life or property.

In your case the driveway and "front yard" would be a no-no for loaded carry. Things might get a bit gray in trying to determine exactly how much of your 5 acres is the "front yard". Better safe than sorry.

Note that concealed carry is OK anywhere on the property, including within 1 foot of the unfenced property line, and even while kiddies are walking by on their way home from school... as long as the gun is unloaded.

[Rugerdaddy]

In your case the driveway and "front yard" would be a no-no for loaded carry. Things might get a bit gray in trying to determine exactly how much of your 5 acres is the "front yard". Better safe than sorry.

Note that concealed carry is OK anywhere on the property, including within 1 foot of the unfenced property line, and even while kiddies are walking by on their way home from school... as long as the gun is unloaded.

I read the link, but missed some. Thanks for the clarification.

As to carrying an unloaded concealed weapon, what's the point? Might as well carry a brick in my pocket.

In summary, I guess I can carry on my son's property behind a fence to hide my gun from the hoplophobes who might have a nervous breakdown if they saw someone carrying a gun. However, I can't carry on my own property because someone might mistake my property for a county park, walk into my front yard, and go into catatonic shock when they see a gun on my hip.

Thanks to you all for your assistance.

[GrizzlyGuy]

In summary, I guess I can carry on my son's property behind a fence to hide my gun from the hoplophobes who might have a nervous breakdown if they saw someone carrying a gun. However, I can't carry on my own property because someone might mistake my property for a county park, walk into my front yard, and go into catatonic shock when they see a gun on my hip.

Is the property out in unincorporated territory? If so, the "front yard" area would still be a public place, but 12031 doesn't restrict loaded carry in such a place unless some other law (e.g., county code) makes that place a prohibited area:

(a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when
he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a
vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a
prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

Note that county codes will often have a 'can't discharge within X yards of someone else's house' provision. If you are within the X yards, then it would be a "prohibited area" under 12031. If nothing like that exists and the property really is in unincorporated territory, then you'd be OK to carry loaded.

[travelshot]

Rugerdaddy, I think, for all practical purposes you nailed it.

I do think it's worth mentioning that you asked about Open Carry and, at least certain case law, addresses concealed carry. I also think it's worth noting that it is fairly clear from case law that "The area in front of a home, including a private driveway, is a public place if it is reasonably accessible to the public without a barrier" (Yarbrough) but that a fenced front yard is not a public place (Strider). [at least in an urban crime riddled environment, as in those two cases].

What about properties that fall in between those definitions?

Ultimately, "California courts have made clear that whether a particular location is a “public place” or “public area” depends on the totality of the facts of the individual case."

So is a "front yard" on a 5 acre lot, with a long driveway, a "public place"? Maybe. Is a "No Trespassing" sign sufficient to challenge the quasi-public designation? Maybe. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but there have been no legal challenges addressing those specific issues.

If I were you, I would not want to be the test case... but maybe you do...

As far as being able to grant, or be granted permission, to carry, I would agree, that as a general rule, the lawful possessor of property can grant an invited guest, or licensee, the same rights that he/she has. So IF your son can carry on his own property, then he should be able to grant you the same right when you are lawfully on his property.

Of course none of this takes into account any other laws (ie school zones) or local laws or ordinances. [and of course none of this is legal advice]...

[PsychGuy274]

If you have his permission, then it is EXACTLY like carrying on your own property.

[Decoligny]

Yes, but only in parts of the private property where you can legally carry loaded. See "Semi Public Places Restrictions" here for more info on where you can and can't.

ETA: You asked about the applicable statute, it is 12031. See here:



For the case of private property that you do not own, you "are in lawful possession of private property" if you have the owner's permission to be there.

Also realize that the "Semi Public Places Restrictions" only apply in incorporated cities and unincorporated areas where discharge of a firearm is prohibited.

If your son lives out in the boonies where it is legal to shoot, then 12031 doesn't apply and you can carry legally.

[GrizzlyGuy]

Also realize that the "Semi Public Places Restrictions" only apply in incorporated cities and unincorporated areas where discharge of a firearm is prohibited.

If your son lives out in the boonies where it is legal to shoot, then 12031 doesn't apply and you can carry legally.

Correct, I said that above. The county codes can have "gotchas" in terms of discharge restrictions and folks in unincorporated territory need to read through those as well.

[aermotor]

Don't forget about the 1,000 foot school zone.

This still doesn't matter if you're in your own fenced in property.