Special Order 40, LAPD Chief Charlie Beck, Senator Gloria Romero and Deadly Force

[NiteQwill]

I'm sorry but your vaunted "21 foot rule" is not license to shoot people.

Please don't twist my words ever again. It's bad form.

21 feet is no license to shoot.

Ok expert witness, then what do you suggest? Giving the attacker some candy?

I never twisted your words, your statement is as bold as your argument for non-lethal force for a person with a lethal weapon.

Don't be sad because you're on the wrong side of the argument.

SJgunguy24's video and response speaks for itself.

[Kynoch]

Ok expert witness, then what do you suggest? Giving the attacker some candy?

I never twisted your words, your statement is as bold as your argument for non-lethal force for a person with a lethal weapon.

Don't be sad because you're on the wrong side of the argument.

SJgunguy24's video and response speaks for itself.

Struggle as much as you like, your 21 foot rule is no license to shoot people.

[SJgunguy24]

Struggle as much as you like, your 21 foot rule is no license to shoot people.

Don't worry about the 21 foot theory then. It doesn't apply to you, you may wait until 2 feet.

Nobody said it was a rule, it is taught and is used by LEA, CCW classes, and body guards as a standard distance that can possibly end the advantage you have with a firearm. Anything closer then that, you might end up having to revert to another means of defense. If your attacker has a weapon, or can overpower you, you will lose. Losing in many of these jobs means death.

I don't know how much training you have or in what. The fact is a firearm is a distance tool. When I draw, I'm taking a step back to make some room. When a firearm is presented the fight should be over. If they advance on a person pointing a gun at them, they have made the choice.

There is a measured amount of violence that is needed to end any fight. You draw, they advance, guess what. You might have just earned yourself a bullet. If they stop, well guess what, they got smart, no bullet.

[vantec08]

I am an average guy . . .. . . was about 7 or 8 when I figured out that if someone draws a weapon on police, the police will draw theirs. AND - -- the policeman is probably a better shot than I am. As in a similar thread about a guy that took a ball bat to a passing policeman, if it was suicide-by-cop, he got his wish. If not, that community is one dangerous idiot safer. 21 feet, 21 inches, 21 anything is so much crap to me.

[negolien]

For some people it doesn't matter what a minority does the police are always the bad guys /shrug. As for less than lethal they'd get sued using that too. To some people cops are the bad guys no matter what that's why their neighborhoods are crime infested crap holes.

[Nodda Duma]

Is the 21 ft rule a legal threshold which allows LEO to legally and justifiably use deadly force against a person wielding a knife? In that sense, no it is not a license to shoot (in legal terms)..more like the officer has permission to defend himself.

Analogous to civilian legal right to defend themselves in their home.

It also sounds like 21ft rule was set by scientifically examining human reaction time vs rate of closure of an armed assailant. Essentially, your chances of surviving a knife attack without major injuries increases dramatically if you use deadly force against a knife-wielding assailant who crosses this nominal 21 ft threshold. Hence, the legal aiuthorization is bounded there.

Kynoch, legally deadly force is authorized at 21 ft distance. License to kill? In laymen's terms ( ie 99% of the time) it's essentially the same. In technical, legal terms yes there is a difference.

[tankerman]

Maybe she's not a bigot and perhaps she's not about to say the words you seem to be trying to force into her mouth?

Yah, maybe only White People are bigots.

Go grab yourself another cocktail, it really helps your trolling effort.

[SJgunguy24]

For some people it doesn't matter what a minority does the police are always the bad guys /shrug. As for less than lethal they'd get sued using that too. To some people cops are the bad guys no matter what that's why their neighborhoods are crime infested crap holes.

People who think like that have a deeply ingrained bias, or cannot use reason and see from the others point of view.
I caught hell for defending Mehserle's actions the night he shot Grant.
But when I tell them to see it from a 3rd party point of view, the wheels start turning and they wake up for a second.

Sometimes all it takes is to look at things from a different perspective, and get them away from the people who fuel the collective thought behavior.

[stitchnicklas]

ok people lets keep it civil here,the last time this topic was discussed it end up with a lot of baiting and arguing.which in turn got it shut down.

kynoch most of us realize that your opinion will never par with ours,what there is no need to critique our opinions/grammar/ideals,this is our opinion and we live by that. billy jack is not a bigot for referring to what some call a cockroach,we call these folk by many names,they are a reference to criminals of society.

[r3dn3ck]

A knife is a gun that suffered from poor project management. The honorable senator like all politicians cares only for pandering to idiots that are still naive enough to believe anything that comes out of her mouth.

Treat knifes just like you would a gun. There's a reason for the 21 foot rule. Just ask my right forearm.

SJgunguy: Please PM me the defense or point of understanding that you have re: Mehserle/Grant. I find myself conflicted in my opinion. Perhaps yours will provide a point of view that's endangered up here.

[DRM6000]

Kynoch, you should try the Tueller Drill to understand the 21ft rule to understand why a knife-wielding assailant is deadly. He can close the distance in 1.5 seconds. Take into account reaction time and alot of people can get hurt.

I don't have the build of an athlete and have run the Tueller drill. As the attacker with the knife, I was able to contact the defender most the time as they stepped off the X. As the defender with a rifle, I was able to just get out of reach of the attacker, by inches, but not with enough time to place a well-aimed shot. An attacker who's bigger, stronger and faster could definitely be a deadly threat to face.

I'll agree with you, it's not a license to shoot, but it is justifiable use of deadly force.

[B Strong]

Whoa! 21 feet! Bang, bang! Whew!

That's how we treat those "third world" cockroaches by golly!!

If I'm confronted by a knife wielding Dolph Lundgren, or Danny Trejo within 21 feet, my response will be the same.

You take your threats as they introduce themselves.

Romero is an apologist for her constituents, and that isn't propaganda, it might as well be written into her job classification.

What amazes me no end is that there is indeed a class of individuals that will rally in support of criminals based solely on their ethnicity.

[scarville]

My understanding of the 21 foot rule is not as a justification for shooting but a caution. It simply says that in the time it takes the average defender to recognize a threat, draw his sidearm and fire 2 rounds at COM, an average assailant can cover a distance of 21 feet. So, when dealing with an edged-weapon wielder at anything less than 21 feet, I need to have my gun out and ready to shoot before he starts rushing. Otherwise I risk being injured or killed before I can effectively respond. If the guy or gal just stands there and makes no threating movement the proximity alone is not a justification for shooting.

BTW, It was one of those charging bad guy drills in a class a couple years ago that prompted me to go back to carrying a J-frame instead of a Colt Defender. Where I'm allowed to carry a concealed weapon of course.

[dunndeal]

No, I did not. You did. Please don't ever try to twist my words again -- that's a cheap and obvious stunt.

What I said was being threatened by someone with a knife who is within 21 feet of you is not license to shoot them.

In some cases the person with the knife may indeed end-up getting shot and the shooter may indeed be justified in shooting the person with the knife -- many, many variables (and often options) come into play.

Those that suggest there is automatic license to shoot any threatening person with a knife who is within 21 feet of a LEO are simply mistaken.

I hope I never find myself in a foxhole with you expecting you to be part of a defense team.

[Kynoch]

I hope I never find myself in a foxhole with you expecting you to be part of a defense team.

Have no fear I would never be in a foxhole with someone like you.