When is a vertical forward grip not a vertical forward grip?

[wash]

I want to build a featureless non-AW OLL gun.

I've read about gloves with a pop rivet on one of the fingers to aid magazine changes in bullet button guns. The rivet tool isn't attached to the gun so the bullet button still makes it a non-detachable magazine.

What about adding a tapered hole on the back of a gas block and a glove with an attached bent rod that will not stay attached to the gun? Perhaps spring loaded to eject itself if not held in place?

This is a technical question about when does a gun possess a feature?

Is the act of pressing the metal rod in to the tapered hole adding a vertical forward grip?

I don't want opinion, I want to hear about cases, constructive possession and stuff like that.

Thank you.

[wash]

Part 2: Would a bayonet be a "second hand grip"?

[E Pluribus Unum]

I want to build a featureless non-AW OLL gun.

I've read about gloves with a pop rivet on one of the fingers to aid magazine changes in bullet button guns. The rivet tool isn't attached to the gun so the bullet button still makes it a non-detachable magazine.

What about adding a tapered hole on the back of a gas block and a glove with an attached bent rod that will not stay attached to the gun? Perhaps spring loaded to eject itself if not held in place?

This is a technical question about when does a gun possess a feature?

Is the act of pressing the metal rod in to the tapered hole adding a vertical forward grip?

I don't want opinion, I want to hear about cases, constructive possession and stuff like that.

Thank you.

Constructive possession is irrelevant as California does not have a constructive possession provision in its AW laws. Constructive possession refers to federal statutes regarding things like drop in auto sears for full auto AR's et cetera. I know you did not want to hear about it, but I just wanted to clarify.

You ask about a featureless build, but then you mention a bullet button. It is one or the other. If you have a featureless build, then you don't need a bullet button and you can use detachable 30 round magazines.

Maybe you are a bit confused about what the law says?

It says:

If your rifle is 1) Center Fire AND 2) Has a detachable magazine, it CANNOT have the following:

1) A grenade launcher
2) A Pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously below the action
3) A forward pistol grip
4) A Flash Hider
5) A collapsible butt stock
6) A thumbhole stock

The list requires BOTH original criteria; it must be center fire AND have a detachable magazine. If you have a .22 caliber upper, it is not center fire. If you have a bullet button, then it does not have a detachable magazine. If either is untrue then the list is irrelevant.

In short, if your rifle has a bullet button, your rifle can have a forward pistol grip. If you want to remove the BB and have detachable magazines, then you can't have any feature on the list. Its that simple.

As far as what constitutes a pistol grip, a rear pistol grip is any pistol-style grip that allows the webbing between the index finger and thumb to contact the rifle below the point where the trigger intersects the lower receiver. As far as what constitutes a forward pistol grip, I don't know if anyone has clarified that yet. I would assume if it is a grip that can be grasped in any way, it could be argued that it is a forward pistol grip.

As far as bayonets are concerned, bayo lugs are not restricted federally or by state any longer. It is not a forward grip either.

[wash]

Thanks for the help but that's not really what I'm asking.

Federally, a vertical forward grip makes a pistol an AOW NFA item.

So constructive possession might be an issue but what I have in mind will never be permanently attached, just pressed in to a socket and spring loaded so that it will pop out if it isn't being pressed in.

I was asking about the bullet button tool because it's attached to a glove, just like the "not a vertical forward grip" attachment would be attached to a glove.

I want to make a CA legal featureless AOW-like OLL pistol that can drop magazines, a semi-bullpup design with the hand grip on the mag well.

It would be toeing a lot of lines but still legal I hope.

[tonelar]

Just a couple points;

1. you might have gotten better responses if you specified that you're looking into making a pistol in your first post.

2. with pistols or long guns; there's no such thing as a "semi-bullpup" design- either it's a bullpup or it's not.

3. the only way a (CA legal) pistol can be built to have detachable magazines is "with the hand grip on the mag well."

[tonelar]

Part 2: Would a bayonet be a "second hand grip"?

No, it wouldn't. Unless you have 2 bayonets attached. For the bayonet to comprise a "second hand grip" requires a "first hand grip" to already be in place.

Hope that helped...

So constructive possession might be an issue but what I have in mind will never be permanently attached, just pressed in to a socket and spring loaded so that it will pop out if it isn't being pressed in.

Just so I'm clear on this point;

You're imagining a left glove that has a metal piece attached to it that fits into a fwd portion of this pistol (one that's spring loaded, so when you remove your hand from it, the part will not remain attached).

Does the pistol technically ever have a VFG?

[bigcalidave]

Wait, I'm trying hard to understand your post. Do you want to "bullpup" the trigger in front of the magwell so the magwell becomes the grip and kinda becomes a standard pistol? ditch the regular pistol grip and run a buffer tube with no stock.... I see what you're thinking on that one, you could call it a handgun with no restrictions.
You're gonna need to make a completely custom lower for that to work. I'm trying to hold one like that now, all the support would be on the mag. I'm also a big guy, and even my hands can't wrap the AR mag like a normal pistol grip. Not without changing the lower substantially. Why don't you design a .223 pistol using standard AR mags in the grip?? Sounds more likely. Also, if you are going to do all that, why do you need the VFG? It'll be balanced so far back on your hand that it wouldn't even do much.

[wash]

I say semi-bull pup because a standard rifle has the magazine in front of the trigger and pistol grip, a bullpup has the trigger and pistol grip in front of the mag well. I want to put the trigger directly in front of the mag well and use the mag well (and magazine) as the pistol grip. I'll still have a linkage going back to a modified AR FCG so it has that traditional bullpup feature but the grip is not traditional bullpup or standard rifle.

I can get my thumb wrapped around the back of the mag well. Not the greatest grip ever but then you can legally use a cane end on the buffer tube and brace with that. My non-VFW grip idea would give more control.

It will require a bit of machine work on the lower, two modified triggers, a JP ambi-selector installed backward (don't ask), some carbon fiber and a bit of aluminum to hold it together. I've got it mostly worked out.

I've also got another idea that could be really exciting if my non-VFG is legal.

[tonelar]

so you want to remotely actuate the hammer/ sear by putting the trigger ifo the magwell.

sounds neat...

aren't conventional pistols; semi bull pups by your logic? they have triggers ifo the mag wells and hammers behind, after all.

[bigcalidave]

Well in hopes of hearing your other idea. Yes your grip idea would be legal. Its not part of the gun but part of your glove. Nothing violated there. I think your bullpup idea is intriguing but you should put some plans together and talk to a machinist about making a one piece lower for this exact idea.

[wash]

You could say that, but very few pistols are gas operated with rotating bolts a safety that's operated by the off hand and all kinds of other rifle features.

[wash]

This idea isn't proven at all. My proof of concept will be the bare minimum required. There's no sense paying $1,500 or more for someone to machine a one of a kind lower when I could start with something more finished.

Once upon a time I used to turn the cranks on a Bridgeport and I built a carbon fiber monocoque race car chassis with about 60 lbs of carbon fiber, epoxy resin and expanding foam. I'm not going to be doing anything I haven't done before...

[adamsreeftank]

Remember, if it is a "standard" pistol without a fixed magazine, you can not have a threaded end on the barrel.

[wash]

I've got an idea for that.

It says threaded barrels that can accept a flash hider or whatever are illegal, but I didn't see where it say that flash hiders on pistols were illegal.

I can run a lathe too.

Where to find a chrome lined heavy barrel?

The gas block is another issue I have to deal with...

[PORCH]

make sure to post up pictures when you're done building it