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Caution: Roster-exempt single-action revolvers must have > 3" barrels!

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  • bwiese
    I need a LIFE!!
    • Oct 2005
    • 27621

    Caution: Roster-exempt single-action revolvers must have > 3" barrels!

    Please continue to note that "single-action revolver" does not necessarily mean "Roster-exempt single-action revolver. Such revolvers must also be 'dimensionally compliant' per barrel and overall lengths specified in 12133PC to be Roster exempt.

    [Until the Roster is killed and/or until we pull the trigger on NeRFs, please keep this warning in mind.]

    It appears that some non-C&R/non-antique revolvers may have been transferred into CA or sold from dealer inventory, under the 12133PC single-action exemption - without having the minimum 3" barrel length.

    Such revolvers with bbls under 3" long are not 12133PC "Roster-exempt single-action revolvers", and would have to be Rostered - or affixed with a 3" bbl before crossing into CA; or affixed with a 3" bbl before entering CA FFL inventory from a CA seller for resale within CA.

    The particular motivation for this post relates to the general category of "Sheriff's model" and "Storekeeper model"-style single action revolvers having barrels approx 3" long - some may have been cut down years ago from longer bbls. [These revolvers typically do not have ejector rods/shrouds attached to the barrel, although this particular distinction has no bearing on the law.] Quite a few may be 2.75" - 3" range, though most very recent single-action revolvers seem to bottom out around 3" bbl length.

    7.5" min overall length criteria is also necessary for Roster-exempt single-action status, but this requirement is - as best I can see - generally directly follows if the wheelgun has a min. 3" barrel length (possible exceptions may be some weird smaller S/A 22LRs with very small grips).

    Remember, this is just as applicable to "cowboy gun" single-action revolvers as it is to revolvers having a nontraditional appearance which may on first blush appear to be non-single-action. (Thus, say, a snubby S&W Model 60 cannot have just its DA sear removed to render it a Roster-exempt single-action.)
    12133 PC.

    (a)
    The provisions of this chapter shall not apply to a single-action revolver that
    has at least a 5-cartridge capacity with a barrel length of not less than 3", and
    meets any of the following specifications:
    (1) Was originally manufactured prior to 1900 and is a curio or relic, as
    defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.

    (2) Has an overall length measured parallel to the barrel of at least 7-1/2"
    when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel are assembled.

    (3) Has an overall length measured parallel to the barrel of at least 7-1/2"
    when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel are assembled and that is
    currently approved for importation into the United States pursuant to the
    provisions of paragraph (3) of subsection (d) of Sec. 925 of Title 18 of the
    United States Code.





    [ETA: updated/corrected thread title.]
    Last edited by bwiese; 04-27-2009, 4:12 PM.

    Bill Wiese
    San Jose, CA

    CGF Board Member / NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA life member
    sigpic
    No postings of mine here, unless otherwise specifically noted, are
    to be construed as formal or informal positions of the Calguns.Net
    ownership, The Calguns Foundation, Inc. ("CGF"), the NRA, or my
    employer. No posts of mine on Calguns are to be construed as
    legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer.
  • #2
    ke6guj
    Moderator
    CGN Contributor - Lifetime
    • Nov 2003
    • 23725

    correct, that is why NAA has Rostered two of their mini revolvers, because they don't meet the dimensional exemption.
    Jack



    Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA?

    No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer.

    Comment

    • #3
      bwiese
      I need a LIFE!!
      • Oct 2005
      • 27621

      Yes it seems some of the SASS cowboys may be "cowboys".

      Bill Wiese
      San Jose, CA

      CGF Board Member / NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA life member
      sigpic
      No postings of mine here, unless otherwise specifically noted, are
      to be construed as formal or informal positions of the Calguns.Net
      ownership, The Calguns Foundation, Inc. ("CGF"), the NRA, or my
      employer. No posts of mine on Calguns are to be construed as
      legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer.

      Comment

      • #4
        wash
        Calguns Addict
        • Aug 2007
        • 9011

        How do they measure the barrel?

        Automatics are from the muzzle to the breach face but some people measure just the barrel portion on revolvers, leaving out the cylinder.

        If it's measured from muzzle to breach that would change the limits significantly.
        sigpic
        Originally posted by oaklander
        Dear Kevin,

        You suck!!! Your are wrong!!! Stop it!!!
        Proud CGF and CGN donor. SAF life member. Former CRPA member. Gpal beta tester (it didn't work). NRA member.

        Comment

        • #5
          bwiese
          I need a LIFE!!
          • Oct 2005
          • 27621

          Originally posted by wash
          How do they measure the barrel?

          Automatics are from the muzzle to the breach face but some people measure just the barrel portion on revolvers, leaving out the cylinder.

          If it's measured from muzzle to breach that would change the limits significantly.
          For the purposes of this section for revolvers, I would consider the measurement to be 'barrel tip to rear of forcing cone', and not include any barrel/cylinder gap and especially not the length of cylinder bore.

          Bill Wiese
          San Jose, CA

          CGF Board Member / NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA life member
          sigpic
          No postings of mine here, unless otherwise specifically noted, are
          to be construed as formal or informal positions of the Calguns.Net
          ownership, The Calguns Foundation, Inc. ("CGF"), the NRA, or my
          employer. No posts of mine on Calguns are to be construed as
          legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer.

          Comment

          • #6
            wash
            Calguns Addict
            • Aug 2007
            • 9011

            I haven't read the law but unless they spell out the forcing cone to muzzle measurement, this might be a possible point of attack.

            I'm not really in to mini-revolvers, I just have a general interest in messing with the BOF.
            sigpic
            Originally posted by oaklander
            Dear Kevin,

            You suck!!! Your are wrong!!! Stop it!!!
            Proud CGF and CGN donor. SAF life member. Former CRPA member. Gpal beta tester (it didn't work). NRA member.

            Comment

            • #7
              bwiese
              I need a LIFE!!
              • Oct 2005
              • 27621

              Originally posted by wash
              I haven't read the law but unless they spell out the forcing cone to muzzle measurement, this might be a possible point of attack.
              I don't think a rational definition of 'barrel length' would include any length from the "cylinder".

              Given it's apparently left undefined in regulation I believe the answer would be from tip-to-toe of the barrel, period.

              Bill Wiese
              San Jose, CA

              CGF Board Member / NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA life member
              sigpic
              No postings of mine here, unless otherwise specifically noted, are
              to be construed as formal or informal positions of the Calguns.Net
              ownership, The Calguns Foundation, Inc. ("CGF"), the NRA, or my
              employer. No posts of mine on Calguns are to be construed as
              legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer.

              Comment

              • #8
                WileyWilly
                Member
                • May 2008
                • 482

                This is from the DOJ New Resident and Intra-familial Transfer forms:

                Part B. Handgun Information
                For each handgun, you must provide the identification information requested. Please refer to your handgun owner
                information or the samples below to assist you in providing the required information:
                Usually located on the frame of the handgun. May be all numeric or a combination of
                alpha and numeric characters.
                Serial Number
                Model The model name of the handgun (e.g., 3032 Tomcat, KP95, 17C, Mini 14).
                Caliber The caliber of the handgun (e.g., .38, .45, .308).
                Barrel Length Enter the barrel length as stated in your owner information, or measure the barrel length
                by closing the action of the handgun and inserting a wooden dowel down the barrel until it
                stops. Mark the dowel with a pen at the muzzle. Remove the dowel and measure the
                distance between the inserted end of the dowel and the pen mark
                .
                Handgun Origin The country of origin of the handgun (e.g., United States, Russia, China, Italy).
                Make The manufacturer of the handgun (e.g., Beretta, Ruger, Glock, Smith and Wesson).
                This form may not be used to report ownership of assault weapons defined in PC section 12276, 12276.1, or
                12276.5. It is the responsibility of the applicant to determine if the firearm being reported is an assault weapon. A
                list of assault weapons is available on the Bureau of Firearms website at www.ag.ca.gov/firearms. Questions may
                be directed to the Bureau of Firearms at (916) 263-4887.

                Sorry for the format, they were in PDF and I don't know how to copy and paste it so that it is correctly formatted.
                WW

                Comment

                • #9
                  wash
                  Calguns Addict
                  • Aug 2007
                  • 9011

                  That's what I'm talking about.

                  This might be good for an underground regulation thing if the DOJ rejects a revolver for having a short barrel.

                  Now who's going to buy a .357 Maximum Blackhawk and put an itty-bitty barrel on it?
                  sigpic
                  Originally posted by oaklander
                  Dear Kevin,

                  You suck!!! Your are wrong!!! Stop it!!!
                  Proud CGF and CGN donor. SAF life member. Former CRPA member. Gpal beta tester (it didn't work). NRA member.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    bohoki
                    I need a LIFE!!
                    • Jan 2006
                    • 20784

                    hmm how about welding a flashhider on it

                    that'll show em

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      FortCourageArmory
                      Senior Member
                      • Apr 2007
                      • 1001

                      Originally posted by bwiese
                      Yes it seems some of the SASS cowboys may be "cowboys".
                      What are you meaning, Bill? I'm trying to figure out if that's a wink-wink-nudge-nudge friendly poke in the ribs or are you making an accusation? I ask only becasue I am a "SASS cowboy" as are many of my customers.
                      sigpicNRA Life Member
                      Tim & the gang
                      Fort Courage Armory
                      1518-B Los Angeles Avenue
                      Simi Valley, CA 93065
                      (805) 526-6563
                      www.fortcouragearmory.com

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        rivviepop
                        Veteran Member
                        • Jul 2007
                        • 2528

                        Are pre-1890 and/or C&R revolvers exempt completely from this rule?

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          ke6guj
                          Moderator
                          CGN Contributor - Lifetime
                          • Nov 2003
                          • 23725

                          C&R handguns of any age are exempt from the roster. Not limited to just revolvers, but to other handgun types as well.
                          Jack



                          Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA?

                          No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer.

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            rivviepop
                            Veteran Member
                            • Jul 2007
                            • 2528

                            Originally posted by ke6guj
                            C&R handguns of any age are exempt from the roster. Not limited to just revolvers, but to other handgun types as well.
                            I was referring to the PC as in the first post; 12133(a)(1) it says "and", so that covers my one part of the question (I didn't read close enough there). It would appear a post-1900 single action less than 3 inch would be illegal, even though it's a C&R by the 50yr rule.

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              yellowfin
                              Calguns Addict
                              • Nov 2007
                              • 8371

                              Original Detective Specials are on the C&R list, yes?
                              "You can't stop insane people from doing insane things with insane laws. That's insane!" -- Penn Jillette
                              Originally posted by indiandave
                              In Pennsylvania Your permit to carry concealed is called a License to carry fire arms. Other states call it a CCW. In New Jersey it's called a crime.
                              Discretionary Issue is the new Separate but Equal.

                              Comment

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