After Dallas - No such thing as militarization of police

[ironpegasus]

Isn't that kind of like crying foul if a suspect were to be shot with a .50 cal rifle vs a .308 rifle?

As in, to much rifle?

In the end the device was controlled by a human just like a rifle.

In a rifle the explosion is contained in the chamber which shoots the bullet out of the rifle into the suspect...Threat over.


In this case the explosion was just not contained in a rifles chamber, and no projectile hit the suspect. Instead the explosion hit the suspect ending the threat.

As far as being a "standard" police tactic....Well it is simply not...Nor will it ever be.

The reasons I question it have little to do with the "should it have been a .50 or .308" argument and more to do with your last sentence. Did people think that non-knock warrants would ever become standard procedure the first time they used one? Probably not. Wire taps? Watch lists? What seems abnormal to us now may well become accepted standard practice down the road. Remember that under Roe, abortion was supposed to be "rare, safe and legal" - emphasis on the rare. Just because you don't see it becoming widely accepted doesn't mean that it won't be (or, admittedly, that it will be). Look at all the other things that have become acceptable or unacceptable in the last two decades that used to be the polar opposite of where they stand now.

That's why it's appropriate to really and truly examine these things and have the public debate now before it can get to a place where we view it as abused. Because I don't know about you, but I don't want it to become SOP to the point that they just roll a bot with an explosives package in to take care of a barricaded suspect who unlike this guy, hasn't harmed anyone but is threatening something and later find out that the guy was just off his meds and didn't even have explosives. Because if we don't set the boundaries now about where and when it's acceptable to use and set that line clearly, then it becomes easier and easier to justify additional erosions of when such a thing is or isn't acceptable. That guy had it coming one way or another.

Since it was just a robot anyway, I might have preferred to first try and incapacitate rather than kill him to see if he could be squeezed for additional intel, maybe sweat him and find out if he really was acting alone. It wouldn't have increased risk to officers and you could always have employed a plan A/B option - try to incapacitate and detonate if needed. I'm sure those things have more than one manipulator/appendage/sensor trigger available to them. But that's preference - at the end of the day, I'd want him tried and executed and not living off of taxpayer largesse for decades.

[mif_slim]

Simple, let the citizens carry and police roam the streets with "AR" like in Israel and it'll be dandy. That way, we can protect ourselves and the police can do what they need to.

[ironpegasus]

Nothing different than our military does. Nothing different that SWAT would do either for the most part. Only those nutty jihadist intentionally set themselves up to be killed and "martyred". When you want to be "effective" and "inflinct maxium casualties" you use tactics that further that goal.


Funny how a couple years ago DHS was all worried about returning, disgruntled, right wing VETs being the "home grown terrorists". But as usual......its usually the lefties you gotta keep an eye on.

Problem here is that he was a vet. Which they'll use as justification to try and place restrictions on vets in general. Although he did receive an other than honorable discharge, which doesn't help their case as much.

As to the other comment, exactly. No right-minded infantry officer would order a direct march toward the enemy over exposed terrain when they could set up a perfectly good ambush, from cover, on the high ground with interlocking and overlapping fields of fire. When dealing with a life or death encounter, most people try to stack the odds in their favor as much as possible.

[berg]

Was that on-scene? That looks like a lot of crumbled concrete and collateral damage to the building if it is. Just how much explosives did they load that robot up with?

It looks like concrete but it's actually acoustic tiling. Barely more rigid than cardboard.

[jasmoore3]

Roostersgt;


Nice deflection. I never said anything about race or either of the incidents you side tracked too. Answer me please if you dare. Cop #1 shoots two young men in a car, cop #2 shoots at cop #1. Neither cop is reprimanded. If it looks like a whitewash and smells like a whitewash what is it? You want more examples? Look at Fresno P.D. from the top on down.

P.S. Just because people have a different viewpoint doesn't make them "low information voters". Very condescending and arrogant attitude. Some may say "typical cop" even. lol

[SVT-40]

The reasons I question it have little to do with the "should it have been a .50 or .308" argument and more to do with your last sentence. Did people think that non-knock warrants would ever become standard procedure the first time they used one? Probably not. Wire taps? Watch lists?

You see you have been brainwashed to believe "no knock" warrants are standard practice. Same with wire taps and watch lists...

They all are far from common....

All warrants and wire taps are reviewed by a judge, and are the most constitution form of a search a LEO can perform...

So called "no knock" warrants are in fact not issued by state courts in California...

They can be issued by federal courts, however they are so exceedingly rare as to be non existent...

Wire taps can only be used in certain select cases... Drugs where only large quantities are involved, Murder, kidnapping and a few others.

The watch list is a federal issue, and one where local leo's have no involvement.. I too have issues with the constitutionality of such lists.

What seems abnormal to us now may well become accepted standard practice down the road. Remember that under Roe, abortion was supposed to be "rare, safe and legal" - emphasis on the rare. Just because you don't see it becoming widely accepted doesn't mean that it won't be (or, admittedly, that it will be). Look at all the other things that have become acceptable or unacceptable in the last two decades that used to be the polar opposite of where they stand now.

Really... "widely" accepted... It was a solution to this incident...

What other forms of ending these type of situations have become common or accepted now , that were at some point not accepted practice?

That's why it's appropriate to really and truly examine these things and have the public debate now before it can get to a place where we view it as abused. Because I don't know about you, but I don't want it to become SOP to the point that they just roll a bot with an explosives package in to take care of a barricaded suspect who unlike this guy, hasn't harmed anyone but is threatening something and later find out that the guy was just off his meds and didn't even have explosives. Because if we don't set the boundaries now about where and when it's acceptable to use and set that line clearly, then it becomes easier and easier to justify additional erosions of when such a thing is or isn't acceptable. That guy had it coming one way or another.

Why would you think explosives would be considered in a stand off, when no one has been harmed?

SWAT has really mastered ending these type of situations in the last three decades... Prior to that where were no crisis negotiators. Prior to that it was common to just gas any barricaded suspect, then make entry...

Now that rarely even happens...

Since it was just a robot anyway, I might have preferred to first try and incapacitate rather than kill him to see if he could be squeezed for additional intel, maybe sweat him and find out if he really was acting alone. It wouldn't have increased risk to officers and you could always have employed a plan A/B option - try to incapacitate and detonate if needed. I'm sure those things have more than one manipulator/appendage/sensor trigger available to them. But that's preference - at the end of the day, I'd want him tried and executed and not living off of taxpayer largesse for decades.

"incapacitate" how... The guy was not having tea... He had already killed five, and shot many more.

So called "sleeping gas" does not exist. You don't know where the suspect was holed up, and if gas of any type would have worked, or if it just would have just caused him to do a suicide charge where more officers died.

You are not a barricaded suspect expert. The Dallas SWAT guys have decades of experience, so I believe they made the decisions they did based on what was happening, and which was in consideration to what the suspect said, and did after he was holed up... Remember the suspect also claimed to have IED's planted around the location...

What is interesting is if a SWAT sniper had shot the guy from 500 yards away no one would be raising an eyebrow...

Dead is dead.

[SVT-40]

Roostersgt;


Nice deflection. I never said anything about race or either of the incidents you side tracked too. Answer me please if you dare. Cop #1 shoots two young men in a car, cop #2 shoots at cop #1. Neither cop is reprimanded. If it looks like a whitewash and smells like a whitewash what is it? You want more examples? Look at Fresno P.D. from the top on down.

P.S. Just because people have a different viewpoint doesn't make them "low information voters". Very condescending and arrogant attitude. Some may say "typical cop" even. lol

Do you know why in your scenario cop#1 shot the two in the vehicle? have you read all the police reports involved?

Have you read the report by Cop #2 as to why he shot at Cop#1?

I haven't so I can't comment....

Buy I'm sure there are real facts which you are not aware of.

Facts matter more than "appearances" ... Just like the Appearance that Mike Brown had his hand up, when shot in Ferguson, and that he was a victim... Facts trumped all those "appearances"...

So according to you all the Officers in Fresno are corrupt? Thats what your statement sound like....

[roostersgt]

Roostersgt;


Nice deflection. I never said anything about race or either of the incidents you side tracked too. Answer me please if you dare. Cop #1 shoots two young men in a car, cop #2 shoots at cop #1. Neither cop is reprimanded. If it looks like a whitewash and smells like a whitewash what is it? You want more examples? Look at Fresno P.D. from the top on down.

P.S. Just because people have a different viewpoint doesn't make them "low information voters". Very condescending and arrogant attitude. Some may say "typical cop" even. lol

This entire thread is about the incident in Dallas, and the two claims of racist cop behavior in those incidents that fueled the BLM protest. Are you in the right thread?

BTW, I spoke to many protestors yesterday afternoon, while on-duty. I also spoke to and faced off against the earlier Fergusson protesters, while in riot gear, a bit over a year ago. I don't post out of arrogance, or ignorance. I've been there in person and spoke to many. The ones I asked questions regarding their reason for being there knew almost nothing about the present incidents, or the outcomes of the earlier DOJ investigations and findings. They truly are misinformed young people and are being used by professional agitators. Emotions and perceptions based upon sound bites, video clips and outrageous lies / claims are getting people hurt and killed. I get my information directly from the source here, and you?

[j-shot]

This entire thread is about the incident in Dallas, and the two claims of racist cop behavior in those incidents that fueled the BLM protest. Are you in the right thread?

BTW, I spoke to many protestors yesterday afternoon, while on-duty. I also spoke to and faced off against the earlier Fergusson protesters, while in riot gear, a bit over a year ago. I don't post out of arrogance, or ignorance. I've been there in person and spoke to many. The ones I asked questions regarding their reason for being there knew almost nothing about the present incidents, or the outcomes of the earlier DOJ investigations and findings. They truly are misinformed young people and are being used by professional agitators. Emotions and perceptions based upon sound bites, video clips and outrageous lies / claims are getting people hurt and killed. I get my information directly from the source here, and you?

Enslaved without even realizing.

[Lex Talionis]

A response to the incident in Dallas should have used the National Guard, not police.

A response to what, a SINGLE shooter and you would call in the National Guard?

That makes no sense.