Miller v. Bonta 9th Ckt "assault weapons": Held for Duncan result 1-26-24

[darkwater34]

I agree

[Sgt Raven]

The roster listed Juggernaut Tactical AR-15 & AR-9 pistols have 8.5" barrels as DOJ tested. What they do not have is a gas block/tube.

As they come with a internal mag lock and mag capacity 10 rounds or less. The rest of the type 3 AWB does not apply.

[AlmostHeaven]

As they come with a internal mag lock and mag capacity 10 rounds or less. The rest of the type 3 AWB does not apply.

I feel like having a so-called AR-15 pistol with no gas tube and a locked-in magazine really no longer qualifies as an AR-15 pistol. Think about if some insane law required Remington 870 shotguns to have no tube, turning it into a single-shot.

[mshill]

I feel like having a so-called AR-15 pistol with no gas tube and a locked-in magazine really no longer qualifies as an AR-15 pistol. Think about if some insane law required Remington 870 shotguns to have no tube, turning it into a single-shot.

You are not wrong. But in reality, an AR Pistol is just an aborted AR SBR. When I was in CA I had two just as a (legal) FU to the state. I can't wait to see all the weeping and whaling and knashing of teeth when the house of cards falls.

[Sgt Raven]

I feel like having a so-called AR-15 pistol with no gas tube and a locked-in magazine really no longer qualifies as an AR-15 pistol. Think about if some insane law required Remington 870 shotguns to have no tube, turning it into a single-shot.

What makes you think it has to remain without a gas system?
You know how easy it is to swap uppers.



Even as it is sold, it is not a single shot. Not any different than a Bolt, pump, or lever action fixed magazine repeater.

Your 870 without a magazine tube example is disingenuous at best.



The Hellfighter rear pin assembly makes it easy to separate the upper/lower just enough to drop the mag. It is easier to operate than a bullet button was.

The following semiautomatic pistols are Category 3 assault weapons:

• those that have a fixed magazine of more than 10 rounds, or
• those that do not have a fixed magazine, but does have one of the following aspects:
  • a threaded barrel that is capable of accepting a flash suppressor, silencer, or forward handgrip,
  • a second handgrip,
  • a barrel shroud that allows the weapon to be fired without burning the user?s hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel, or
  • the capacity to accept a detachable magazine outside the pistol grip.
  
  

[AlmostHeaven]

What makes you think it has to remain without a gas system?
You know how easy it is to swap uppers.

Even as it is sold, it is not a single shot. Not any different than a Bolt, pump, or lever action fixed magazine repeater.

Your 870 without a magazine tube example is disingenuous at best.

The Hellfighter rear pin assembly makes it easy to separate the upper/lower just enough to drop the mag. It is easier to operate than a bullet button was.

What is the point of procuring such a product, removing the manual-cycling upper, and buying an entire new upper, at enormous wasted cost? Does California not allow the acquisition of stripped lowers, which can be assembled into pistols?

[pMcW]

What is the point of procuring such a product, removing the manual-cycling upper, and buying an entire new upper, at enormous wasted cost? Does California not allow the acquisition of stripped lowers, which can be assembled into pistols?

I'm no expert on this subject, but I gather that stripped lowers generally cannot be DROS'd as pistols in CA because they do not have the attributes required to be on the CA handgun roster.

So, it means starting with a "rifle" and thus running afoul of federal NFA laws: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/can-...tering-firearm

Can I lawfully make a rifle into a pistol without registering that firearm?
No. A firearm that was originally a rifle would be classified as a ?weapon made from a rifle? if it has either a barrel less than 16 inches in length or an overall length of less than 26 inches. If an individual wishes to make an NFA firearm, they must first submit ATF Form 1 (Application to Make and Register a Firearm), pay a $200.00 making tax, and receive approval of the application from ATF before converting the firearm.

[18 U.S.C. ? 921(a)(3); 26 U.S.C. ? 5845(a)(3)-(4)]

[Superben104]

What is the point of procuring such a product, removing the manual-cycling upper, and buying an entire new upper, at enormous wasted cost? Does California not allow the acquisition of stripped lowers, which can be assembled into pistols?

The process you described can seem inefficient financially, but it is influenced by California's strict firearm regulations. In California:

Pistol Roster Limitations: The state has a roster of handguns that can be sold to civilians. If a pistol is not on this roster, it cannot be sold directly to the public by dealers.

High Prices for Non-Rostered Pistols: Pistols not on the roster can still be acquired through private party transfers, but they frequently fetch prices that are 2 to 3 times their retail value due to their limited availability.

Given these restrictions, some firearm enthusiasts in California might opt for workarounds, such as the bolt-action AR-15 method you mentioned, to obtain specific firearms or configurations legally, even if it means higher costs or additional steps. The aim is to navigate the legal landscape while still achieving the desired firearm configuration.

[Dvrjon]

What makes you think it has to remain without a gas system?

The AG would like you to consider this:

IMPORTANT INFORMATION;

-Aftermarket changes or modifications made to certain single shot pistols (i.e. changing upper receivers, connecting gas tubes) may be considered manufacturing these pistols into assault weapons. See California Penal Code section 30515, subdivision (a)(1), for a list of assault weapon characteristics. The purchaser could be in violation of Penal Code section 30600, prohibiting the manufacture of assault weapons, and Penal Code section 30605(a), prohibiting the possession of unregistered assault weapons.

-The conversion of a single shot pistol to a semi-automatic pistol may constitute the manufacturing of an unsafe handgun, in violation of California Penal Code section 32000 (a), a misdemeanor.

-Alterations of a single shot pistol (i.e. changing upper receivers, connecting gas tubes) may also be considered manufacturing an unsafe handgun. See California Penal Code sections 31900-31910 for the definition of unsafe handguns and 32000(a) for more information on illegal acts involving unsafe handguns.

Although weasel-worded, the threat is real.

[Superben104]

The AG would like you to consider this:
Although weasel-worded, the threat is real.

This language purposefully uses the words "unsafe handgun" instead of "assault weapon" so that people associate them as one and the same.

They are not.


The purpose of the text is to inform gun owners that changing parts of a firearm could result in injury or death if done improperly.

Unsafe Handgun Classification: Converting a single-shot pistol to a semi-automatic action may classify the weapon as an "unsafe handgun" and potentially violate California Penal Code section 32000(a). Further alterations like changing the upper receivers or connecting gas tubes can also lead to this classification. Refer to Penal Code sections 31900-31910 for the specifics on what defines an "unsafe handgun" and 32000(a) for the illegal actions related to such handguns.


Separately, if gun owners change the features of a rifle it could result in an "assault weapon" classification.

Assault Weapon Classification: Changing certain parts of a single-shot pistol, such as the upper receivers or connecting gas tubes, might classify the weapon as an "assault weapon" according to California Penal Code section 30515, subdivision (a)(1). Engaging in such modifications might violate Penal Code sections 30600 (prohibiting the manufacturing of assault weapons) and 30605(a) (prohibiting the possession of unregistered assault weapons).

[AlmostHeaven]

The process you described can seem inefficient financially, but it is influenced by California's strict firearm regulations. In California:

Pistol Roster Limitations: The state has a roster of handguns that can be sold to civilians. If a pistol is not on this roster, it cannot be sold directly to the public by dealers.

High Prices for Non-Rostered Pistols: Pistols not on the roster can still be acquired through private party transfers, but they frequently fetch prices that are 2 to 3 times their retail value due to their limited availability.

Given these restrictions, some firearm enthusiasts in California might opt for workarounds, such as the bolt-action AR-15 method you mentioned, to obtain specific firearms or configurations legally, even if it means higher costs or additional steps. The aim is to navigate the legal landscape while still achieving the desired firearm configuration.

I see. That is an extremely annoying state of affairs.

[ar15barrels]

The roster listed Juggernaut Tactical AR-15 & AR-9 pistols have 8.5" barrels as DOJ tested. What they do not have is a gas block/tube.

9mm AR's don't use a gas tube so the rostered Juggernaut is actually a single shot because you can't have "manual operation" of a blowback-operated firearm without some method to lock the bolt closed which blowback operated guns simply don't have.
The lack-of bolt locking inherent to the blowback design is why if you put a 10 round mag in a blowback operated firearm, it would function as a semi-auto.
As a semi-auto, the gun has to have a MDM and CLI which juggernaut pistols most certainly do not have.
A blowback operated gun has to be configured as a single shot to be able to be exempt of the MDM and CLI requirements to get on the roster.

And while we are on the subject of Juggernaut AR pistols, the 223/5.56 ones not only omit the gas block and gas tube, but the barrel also omits the journal on the barrel where a gas block could be installed in the future.
The barrel has to be re-contoured to make a proper placed journal to accept a gas block.

Here are in-process and completed process pictures of how I convert the barrels to accept a gas system:

[ar15barrels]

What makes you think it has to remain without a gas system?
You know how easy it is to swap uppers.

even as it is sold, it is not a single shot.
Not any different than a Bolt, pump, or lever action fixed magazine repeater.

The 9mm's are sold as single shots.
The 223/5.56 are manually operated fixed magazine repeaters.

[ar15barrels]

Does California not allow the acquisition of stripped lowers, which can be assembled into pistols?

The Roster prohibits that.
You can buy them on the 2nd hand market via PPT.

I have Spikes Tactical stripped AR pistol lowers for sale in the marketplace.

[1911su16b870]

Copper Jacket vid...