Young v. Hawaii (CA9); Dismissed with predjudice 12-16-22

[John Browning]

bingo -- we're on the same page now

and I was certainly combining steps. The decision will probably say, "Young must be allowed to apply for OC; bad state of Hawaii law!" and that'll be the end of the decision.
Then the AG will appeal and the 9th will kill it
OR
the HI legislature will tell the AG to let it slide, and write a virtual no-issue set of regs (like those here in, say SF or LA or a stricter set of the ones in SD). Then Young will fail to meet those regs (or maybe he will get his permit just to shut him up, who knows, a couple of people OCing is not the end of the world, as long as 99.999999% of those who wish to OC are denied, the state will be happy), and we'll have gained nothing in reality.

As the Volokh article above makes clear, the next battle is over the no-issue regs "Instead, Hawaii County could deny the permit on the grounds that Mr. Young has not demonstrated sufficient "need." The denial would probably start a new case, on the permissible stringency of Hawaii's definition of "need.""

And you know how the 9th will rule on that. So again, this decision is no victory for the 2A, in spite of wolfwood's excellent work and O'Scannlain's epic opinion. Not saying a victory can't come someday, but it didn't come in this decision.

As long as these cases keep churning, it's bad for the gun control folks. If they win, that means an appeal to SCOTUS. That means a likely loss that is precedent setting and yet another tool for the forces of freedom to use to further bludgeon the anti-Constitutional crowd with. I think they might start doing the calculus that going to a CCW that is shall issue is better than loaded open carry. Most people are idiots and won't notice if CCW is shall issue. They will definitely notice when I'm carrying my Glock 20 in a chest rig down the organic isle at Whole Foods. The longer they push things toward SCOTUS, the better chance we have to win. They have to win every case, we just have to win one at SCOTUS.

If Kavanaugh gets confirmed (I am sure he will) and one of the liberal justices is replaced, gun control at the state level is going to be effectively killed. While we shouldn't stop the fight, it's ok to take a look around at how much you're winning once in awhile. Shall-issue CCW, national reciprocity, and preemption of state level gun control (mag bans and assault weapons bans) is in sight. Keep fighting, but know we're closer to that goal than we've ever been. Some of you are acting like this is a loss.

[ironpegasus]

Worst case the opinion is in the books, will help to frame subsequent opinions, and increases likelihood that SCOTUS will take on this.

Except for last time they de-published the 3-judge Peruta opinion so worst case is really whatever the en banc pulls out of its orifice(s).

[Marcus herrera]

I hope ccw would be easier. I really don't want to be denied entry to the mall or movie theaters etc.. due to open carry.

[Offwidth]

Except for last time they de-published the 3-judge Peruta opinion so worst case is really whatever the en banc pulls out of its orifice(s).

I can still read and refer to it, so can any judge writing an opinion. Just like any other published dissent it affects future judgments, even when it is not a binding decision.

I do not see how you can spin this development as anything but good news.

[tenemae]

I do not see how you can spin this development as anything but good news.

Well... in this case...

[sfpcservice]

Guys if we win OC, you will get your CCW from the CA legislature super fast.

[John Browning]

I'll try and type something up later today. I am in NY for work so I am a little busy right now.

Well done, sir.

[Paladin]

As of a few minutes ago, there's not a peep about this case on the 3 major national network's news homepages:

https://abcnews.go.com/

https://www.cbsnews.com/

https://www.nbcnews.com/

Or their SFBA local news homepages:

http://abc7news.com/

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/

Me thinks the major news sources are conspiring to keep The People in the dark re. their Right to Bear Arms openly!

Maybe we should all call our sheriffs tomorrow (or via their FB pages) and ask them when we will be able to legally carry openly under the Young court decision?

[ajb78]

SF Chronicle has a article on it now

https://www.sfchronicle.com/nation/article/San-Francisco-appeals-court-2nd-Amendment-grants-13101477.php

[Paladin]

Me thinks it might be time to start thinking about and planning for LOC get togethers like some did back in 2010: Starbucks, California Kitchen, ...

I wonder how many Starbucks there are in SF?

[phdo]

Me thinks it might be time to start thinking about and planning for LOC get togethers like some did back in 2010: Starbucks, California Kitchen, ...

I wonder how many Starbucks there are in SF?

Shoot me a PM when you do. I want to come and take pictures of you being harassed by LEOs.

[Paladin]

You mean UOC get togethers?

=8-|

Not this time....

[moleculo]

I remember posting in another thread quite a few years ago that I thought winning our right to carry within CA would come from some action taken outside of CA. At the time I thought that would be a result of some litigation by SAF since they were recently coming off of wins. Noone had any idea at the time that it would be Wolfwood instead of SAF but the point looks like it may still hold up. That point of view was taken as a personal assault on CGF "strategy" so all of the "right people" went into full frontal assault mode and their groupies piled on. LMAO!!!!!!

Congrats Wolfwood on the win and I'm pretty optimistic that this one will ultimately win out when all appeals are exhausted.

[Paladin]

Shoot me a PM when you do. I want to come and take pictures of you being harassed by LEOs.

It was no big deal when I was part of a group meet up -- but did not UOC -- in Walnut Creek's California Kitchen. There were lots of cops, but no problems. This was with the meetups where LEAs were informed ahead of time where and when the event was taking place.

Of course, there were folks who just did it on their own and had cops respond to "man with a gun" calls. Those weren't as low drama.... All too predictable (and avoidable).

But only a few weeks later I saw the MSM attack us and that's when I (and many others) said no more big group meet ups, things are turning south, if you feel a need to UOC for self-defense, go for it, but not as a group.

[CurlyDave]

There are two main directions this case can go right now. Hawai'i can take its lumps and allow the case to go back to the trial court for, ultimately, an order invalidating their categorical ban of open carry. At that point, they can start issuing permits the same as they would for any security company personnel, or they can pass a new law that contains the same "good cause" requirement that is included in their ccw law. Which of course would mean virtual no issue. That would likely mean another lawsuit, with the state arguing, even under Heller, that "reasonable restrictions" can be imposed on the carriage of firearms in public. That would be appealed....and by now five or six years have passesd with no open carry, and perhaps even odds that they will prevail in both the trial court and the court of appeal.

The other course is to seek en banc, and they have a better than even chance of winning, given what the en banc panel did to Peruta, but the risk is that the Supreme Court will have Kavanaugh by the time the cert petition reaches it. And that would open a whole new can of worms if cert were granted.

Will Hawai'i take the safe route or the risky route? Or will the Ninth grant en banc on its own motion, sweeping up Nichols as it goes?

Or, there could be a good outcome.

If there is no appeal and no en banc, HI essentially becomes shall-issue open carry. I can't think of a better place for this to happen, since a lot of the local economy is tourist based and any significant number of locals openly carrying is going to be viewed as a negative by tourists.

There may be a lot of pressure to issue concealed carry permits just to keep the tourist dollars flowing. Thus pointing the way for CA and the rest of the 9th circuit.