Are Gold and Silver gonna keep going down?

[Not a Cook]

That video you posted proves what? A bunch of bank day traders are ganging up to move a market intraday?? This happens all the time in other trading vehicles. Show me actual evidence of prices suppression (NOT day trading). When someone suppresses a price, they have to move the market without taking on much position, otherwise a counter party can blow up their scam and manipulator is stuck holding the bag.

To save time, you can skip the explaination and go straight to showing some actual evidence.

Other markets are also manipulated, yes. However, the degree to which PM markets are manipulated and the unidirectional nature of the manipulation is somewhat unique to PMs. What Deutsche, UBS, etc. were doing was way more than mere day trading. Look again at the size of the PM markets - unlike equity markets, PM markets are extremely shallow. Remember that you do not have the right to demand delivery anymore.

Could one big money player take a hard stand against the manipulators to make a profit? Of course! However, anyone with that kind of money and expertise will also be aware of what happened to the last folks who tried that. The Hunt brothers broke the market - most folks have serious misunderstandings about what they did and why. Had the trading rules not literally been changed to crush the Hunts, they would have broken the system. Since that time, "big money" players work the system to their advantage, while "small money" folks hoping to trade PMs as short-term investments lose their money to the prior group. Comex participants no longer have the right to demand delivery. If they did, many parties would have done so many, many times.

If you want evidence, look at the massive trades that routinely occur on Comex gold and silver. What rational market participant routinely sells the paper equivalent of a year's production in less than a second at times when markets are at their thinnest?

I understand you want more evidence; research it for yourself if you're really interested. Start at the GATA link. Look at Comex charts, including contract volume and the actual Comex holdings data vs. outstanding contracts. That way you won't be relying on anyone else's statements.

Remember in which subforum this thread is located. Prepping for things like currency devaluations or economic collapses are going to include stores of value like PMs. The question is when is the "best" time to buy.

I'm curious: what preps have you made (or would you recommend) for a currency collapse or other major economic collapse?

[Citizen_B]

Let me put it simply. There are literally thousands of money managers directing billions of dollars of investments. Let's suppose your price suppression is real. How much is it suppressed? Let's say it's 100% because you can't provide a real number, meaning the actual value is twice the suppressed price. As one of the billion+ dollar money managers, why would I not buy as much gold as I possible can, scouring every country, every pawnshop, every dentists office scouping up every oz of gold? For a guaranteed 100% why on earth would I not do this??? Why are the thousands of my competitors not doing this? Because I might have to wait a long time for actual price realization? Even waiting ten years for a guaranteed 100% return is a hell of a deal. Please explain what I have wrong.

[Not a Cook]

Let me put it simply. There are literally thousands of money managers directing billions of dollars of investments. Let's suppose your price suppression is real. How much is it suppressed? Let's say it's 100% because you can't provide a real number, meaning the actual value is twice the suppressed price. As one of the billion+ dollar money managers, why would I not buy as much gold as I possible can, scouring every country, every pawnshop, every dentists office scouping up every oz of gold? For a guaranteed 100% why on earth would I not do this??? Why are the thousands of my competitors not doing this? Because I might have to wait a long time for actual price realization? Even waiting ten years for a guaranteed 100% return is a hell of a deal. Please explain what I have wrong.

Last I checked, quite a number of "billion+ dollar money managers" carried "significant gold and silver positions" via GLD, SLV, or a similar vehicle.

Besides there NOT being any guaranteed return over any specific period, why would any "billion+ dollar money manager" go all in on ANY asset?

Purchasing and holding that much physical gold would entail significant logistical challenges for a non-governmental actor. Let's consider the following hypothetical scenario:
Let's say Mr. Big Money Manager ("Mr. Manager" for short) has a $5 billion pool of funds that he manages. He decides to go "all-in" on gold.

He targets one of the more liquid forms of gold bullion - the gold American Eagle - that is readily available at virtually every gold dealer and coin shop. He decides to buy all he can find.

At today's rates, he could buy 1 toz. gold American eagles for $1,180 at many dealers... so that's what he does. He goes and buys about 4,237,288 1 toz. gold American eagles.

To put this in perspective, he just bought the ENTIRE production runs of 2016, 2015, 2014, 2013, 2012, 2011, and over 20% of all the gold eagles produced in 2010.

Wait a second... most of those coins simply aren't available. So... he then adds in fractionals. But most of those coins aren't available (and they come at a much higher premium). So he adds gold Mexican libertads... and after buying every single one that's in a coin store still doesn't have anywhere near the amount of gold he wanted. So he has to add in gold Canadian maple leafs. But most of those coins aren't available and he still has to buy more. So he adds in Krugerrands and Philharmonics and Kangaroos and Pandas... and... and...

Along the way as he's bought out basically EVERY dealer's bullion inventory, he's noticed a strange thing. The prices keep rising. Quickly! In fact, it seems like the more he buys the higher the price goes. Mr. Manager is really puzzled why that is. It turns out he can't find ANYONE who will sell him physical gold anymore for anywhere near the $1,180 price that he was paying for gold eagles when he first started... even though the Comex spot price for gold says everyone should still want to sell to him at $1,180/toz. Why is that?

Argh! Bullion gold coins just aren't going to get Mr. Manager the amount of physical gold he wants. So... he starts buying good delivery bars. But he soon finds there aren't enough bars available for sale either at a "decent price". Holders of good delivery bars aren't wanting to sell to him, for some inexplicable reason.

So next Mr. Manager is buying it anywhere he can. He takes out "I buy gold" ads on TV and hopes people mail him enough dental crowns and 10k rings and gold-plated costume jewelry to make the ad expense worth it!

In the end, was Mr. Manager able to purchase $5 bil worth of gold? Yes he was! Did he get the 4,237,288 toz. he aimed at? No way, Jose... not even close! No where near that much. The more he bought, the more premium over spot increased.

The above tongue-in-cheek scenario ignores most of the logistical problems that would be present in what you propose. Here are some of the other logistical problems:

• How many "billion+ dollar money managers" do not need to show any short-term returns and can sit on ANY investment for at least a solid decade?
• How would the "billion+ dollar money managers" make their commissions in the meantime (considering their investors would literally see no return)?
• How much would the required security and high security vaulting facility cost (as a percentage of portfolio) and how long would the investors continue to pay that fee (and the managers' commission) with literally no return shown and a "no cash portfolio"?
• Who ever mentioned a 100% return?
• Which "billion+ money managers" would forgo easier, short-term gains?

So... COULD it be done? Oh yes. It could be done. It's extremely unlikely for all sorts of reasons, but it is technically possible.

[Citizen_B]

You really don't understand today's investment world. Consider the possibility that statement may be true as we proceed. I already know how this debate is going to go as we've been down this road before. We'll go line by line on irrelevant and absurd details, the underlying fundamental questions will be ignored, repeat ad nauseam.

Last I checked, quite a number of "billion+ dollar money managers" carried "significant gold and silver positions" via GLD, SLV, or a similar vehicle.

And the same question arises.. Why do these guys NOT load up on GLD/SLV etc? A billion+ dollar single position isn't that significant to a lot of money managers, and it only takes one to do it.

Besides there NOT being any guaranteed return over any specific period, why would any "billion+ dollar money manager" go all in on ANY asset?

Most professional money managers assess an investment choice similar in structure to a risk matrix (look it up of you're not familiar with it) among other criteria. On one axis you have probability of being true (objective conviction), on the other you have consequence of action (return reward/loss). Every investment falls somewhere on this graph and is different based on researched assumptions. Everyone has a different level on what is an acceptable meeting point. If there is an obvious massive price suppression on PMs, objective conviction is very high. That massive price suppression also means very high return reward. On a graph it would put it in the top right corner and EVERY money manager would jump at an opportunity of something like that. There's a reason why going all in on PMs isn't there and it's simple.. Massive price suppression doesn't exist. Again, please provide evidence to the contrary.

Purchasing and holding that much physical gold would entail significant logistical challenges for a non-governmental actor. Let's consider the following hypothetical scenario:
Let's say Mr. Big Money Manager ("Mr. Manager" for short) has a $5 billion pool of funds that he manages. He decides to go "all-in" on gold.

He targets one of the more liquid forms of gold bullion - the gold American Eagle - that is readily available at virtually every gold dealer and coin shop. He decides to buy all he can find.

At today's rates, he could buy 1 toz. gold American eagles for $1,180 at many dealers... so that's what he does. He goes and buys about 4,237,288 1 toz. gold American eagles.

To put this in perspective, he just bought the ENTIRE production runs of 2016, 2015, 2014, 2013, 2012, 2011, and over 20% of all the gold eagles produced in 2010.

Wait a second... most of those coins simply aren't available. So... he then adds in fractionals. But most of those coins aren't available (and they come at a much higher premium). So he adds gold Mexican libertads... and after buying every single one that's in a coin store still doesn't have anywhere near the amount of gold he wanted. So he has to add in gold Canadian maple leafs. But most of those coins aren't available and he still has to buy more. So he adds in Krugerrands and Philharmonics and Kangaroos and Pandas... and... and...

Along the way as he's bought out basically EVERY dealer's bullion inventory, he's noticed a strange thing. The prices keep rising. Quickly! In fact, it seems like the more he buys the higher the price goes. Mr. Manager is really puzzled why that is. It turns out he can't find ANYONE who will sell him physical gold anymore for anywhere near the $1,180 price that he was paying for gold eagles when he first started... even though the Comex spot price for gold says everyone should still want to sell to him at $1,180/toz. Why is that?

Argh! Bullion gold coins just aren't going to get Mr. Manager the amount of physical gold he wants. So... he starts buying good delivery bars. But he soon finds there aren't enough bars available for sale either at a "decent price". Holders of good delivery bars aren't wanting to sell to him, for some inexplicable reason.

So next Mr. Manager is buying it anywhere he can. He takes out "I buy gold" ads on TV and hopes people mail him enough dental crowns and 10k rings and gold-plated costume jewelry to make the ad expense worth it!

In the end, was Mr. Manager able to purchase $5 bil worth of gold? Yes he was! Did he get the 4,237,288 toz. he aimed at? No way, Jose... not even close! No where near that much. The more he bought, the more premium over spot increased.

Your story is complete hypothetical fiction. Show me on example of someone actually attempting this and having the price do what you describe.

The above tongue-in-cheek scenario ignores most of the logistical problems that would be present in what you propose. Here are some of the other logistical problems:

• How many "billion+ dollar money managers" do not need to show any short-term returns and can sit on ANY investment for at least a solid decade?

Plenty. You may think of money managers in the public flavor, but there are countless managers that deal with private high net worth individuals/families/trusts/etc/etc.

• How would the "billion+ dollar money managers" make their commissions in the meantime (considering their investors would literally see no return)?

See above as an example.

• How much would the required security and high security vaulting facility cost (as a percentage of portfolio) and how long would the investors continue to pay that fee (and the managers' commission) with literally no return shown and a "no cash portfolio"?

Lol, facility cost would be insignificant given the size of the position. A typical managers fee would dwarf facility costs.

• Who ever mentioned a 100% return?

I made it up to illustrate the story, so please state what you believe the real suppression is, preferable with actual evidence. I've already asked this and I'm going to assume you don't know - please prove me wrong.

• Which "billion+ money managers" would forgo easier, short-term gains?

The one whose client believes gold is being massively price suppressed. This is not a hard concept.

So... COULD it be done? Oh yes. It could be done. It's extremely unlikely for all sorts of reasons, but it is technically possible.

There's a much simpler explanation why it's not done... because real investment professionals don't subscribe to baseless conspiracy theories with no evidence.

Your listed questions show that you really don't know about today's financial landscape and the obscene amount of money looking for returns.

[Not a Cook]

You really don't understand today's investment world. Consider the possibility that statement may be true as we proceed. I already know how this debate is going to go as we've been down this road before. We'll go line by line on irrelevant and absurd details, the underlying fundamental questions will be ignored, repeat ad nauseam.
And the same question arises.. Why do these guys NOT load up on GLD/SLV etc? A billion+ dollar single position isn't that significant to a lot of money managers, and it only takes one to do it.

Actually, some "billion+ money managers" have. However, large positions in GLD or SLV do not impact spot pricing. Were you under the impression that they did? Or were you assuming that "billion+ money managers" can somehow magically anticipate when spot price manipulation will cease? Remember... holding PMs is not a short-term investment strategy, but rather a hedge or store-of-value strategy.

However, what would work would be acquiring a huge amount of physical. Remember when one of the wealthiest families in the world (aka "The Hunt brothers") attempted just that? They learned a VERY hard lesson. When you beat the market riggers at their own game, they simply change the rules so that you still LOSE.

Most professional money managers assess an investment choice similar in structure to a risk matrix (look it up of you're not familiar with it) among other criteria. On one axis you have probability of being true (objective conviction), on the other you have consequence of action (return reward/loss). Every investment falls somewhere on this graph and is different based on researched assumptions. Everyone has a different level on what is an acceptable meeting point. If there is an obvious massive price suppression on PMs, objective conviction is very high. That massive price suppression also means very high return reward. On a graph it would put it in the top right corner and EVERY money manager would jump at an opportunity of something like that. There's a reason why going all in on PMs isn't there and it's simple.. Massive price suppression doesn't exist. Again, please provide evidence to the contrary.

Why don't you look it up for yourself. Here are a couple articles that should be of interest:

• http://www.acting-man.com/?p=48226
• http://www.gata.org/node/11

You seem to think that spotting the manipulation should be easy... yeah; just about as easy as spotting the LIBOR rigging.

Your story is complete hypothetical fiction. Show me on example of someone actually attempting this and having the price do what you describe.

Attempting to do what? Literally buy the entire market? Hmm... let's see. HUNT BROTHERS.

Or did you mean the buy out the entire inventory of most dealers? That would be self-defeating, wouldn't it? Remind me: demand goes through the roof for physical, what would happen to price for physical?

Plenty. You may think of money managers in the public flavor, but there are countless managers that deal with private high net worth individuals/families/trusts/etc/etc.
See above as an example.
Lol, facility cost would be insignificant given the size of the position. A typical managers fee would dwarf facility costs.
I made it up to illustrate the story, so please state what you believe the real suppression is, preferable with actual evidence. I've already asked this and I'm going to assume you don't know - please prove me wrong.
The one whose client believes gold is being massively price suppressed. This is not a hard concept.

I'm familiar with family offices and the like. There are many "high net worth individuals/families/trusts" that include significant amounts of PMs in their portfolios.

For evidence of spot price manipulation, see the links I've previously posted. If you want more, just follow the links on those sites.

There's a much simpler explanation why it's not done... because real investment professionals don't subscribe to baseless conspiracy theories with no evidence.

Or... you don't understand how shallow the PM marketplace actually is.

Your listed questions show that you really don't know about today's financial landscape and the obscene amount of money looking for returns.

Yes... that must be what my questions show.

But you sort of brought up a major reason why people hedge with PMs or use them as stores-of-value... "the obscene amount of money...".

Can you say, "impending currency devaluation"?

Now, I have some questions for you. You seem to miss entirely the point of this thread in the "Survival and Preparations" subforum. This isn't the "Investment Advice" subforum. Folks here are interested in purchasing precious metals in preparation for various possible economic scenarios.

Most of us (myself included) aren't "gold bugs". Most of us aren't here for investment advice. We don't care to discuss investment strategies. That's not why we visited this subforum. Why did you visit?

So... with that in mind, I'll repeat the same questions I asked you previously:

I'm curious: what preps have you made (or would you recommend) for a currency collapse or other major economic collapse?

[Citizen_B]

However, what would work would be acquiring a huge amount of physical. Remember when one of the wealthiest families in the world (aka "The Hunt brothers") attempted just that? They learned a VERY hard lesson. When you beat the market riggers at their own game, they simply change the rules so that you still LOSE.

Uh, when the Hunt brothers tried to corner the market by buying up all the silver 36 years ago, they bought futures contracts on margin. Yea, that's exactly like a guy walking into a pawn store and buying up all the PMs with cash..

Why don't you look it up for yourself. Here are a couple articles that should be of interest:

• http://www.acting-man.com/?p=48226
• http://www.gata.org/node/11

I asked for evidence of manipulation that's isn't intraday trading, and you give me a link to manipulation in intraday trading... I see we're not going to get anywhere on this point.

Or did you mean the buy out the entire inventory of most dealers? That would be self-defeating, wouldn't it? Remind me: demand goes through the roof for physical, what would happen to price for physical?

Yes, I mean for physical. That's what my story explicitly stated.

Well, if you're buying up all available inventory as the price simultaneiously rises, guess what... You're making money. With the price so 'massively manipulated down', the scam blowing up is a huge tailwind. So again, why hasn't this been tried yet?

I'm familiar with family offices and the like. There are many "high net worth individuals/families/trusts" that include significant amounts of PMs in their portfolios.

You are still missing the point. If these people shared your belief that there's a massive price suppression scam, they would go all in to reap a huge pay day in the future. How is that not obvious to you?

But you sort of brought up a major reason why people hedge with PMs or use them as stores-of-value... "the obscene amount of money...".

You've again missed the point. I'm not talking about hedges or stores of value, I'm talking about what you describe as massive price manipulation/suppression. A completely different topic.

Now, I have some questions for you. You seem to miss entirely the point of this thread in the "Survival and Preparations" subforum. This isn't the "Investment Advice" subforum.

Lol, I didn't bring up the topic of PM price manipulation. If someone is going to make a bold claim like that, I would think they should have some evidence of it being possibly true.

Folks here are interested in purchasing precious metals in preparation for various possible economic scenarios.

Most of us (myself included) aren't "gold bugs". Most of us aren't here for investment advice. We don't care to discuss investment strategies.

Fair enough. If you want to be the thread police, perhaps give a few tickets to some blatant trolls spammers enthusiastic theory guys. The title of this thread is.....

So... with that in mind, I'll repeat the same questions I asked you previously:

I'm curious: what preps have you made (or would you recommend) for a currency collapse or other major economic collapse?

Fair enough and a valid question. Even though you haven't answered my questions, I'll answer yours.

I base my preps on where an event sits on the likelihood/consequence matrix I previously mentioned. As such, an (1) earthquake or (2) disruption from civil unrest gets my priority. While a currency or major economic collapse certainly has a very high consequence, I place it's likelihood pretty far down the list. As such, I don't give it a lot of priority. We can go into detail about why or why not an event like that might occur.

To add, if something like that were to happen, some already pretty dire events have occurred. Having preserved wealth via PMs (if PMs actually have value then) would not be the top of my immediate priorities.

If one was truly prepping for a currency/major economic collapse, my suggestion would be to sell everything, move to Oregon/Idaho/Utah, start a self-sustaining lifestyle, preferably with a large family or like-minded friendly community. Do it now as you have the time/resources to make and learn from mistakes, build up practical skills, have access to modern tech, and develop relationships during 'good' times. But... all that sounds a lot harder than buying some gold coins and calling it good. This may surprise you, but I have had a small hedge position in GLD and physical for awhile now.

[1to3]

Wow, we go in circles much? Here is my thinking... I could be wrong.

Storage and simple convertability are key for fund managers. (What Not A Cook said) A simple 1 billion investment in gold weighs roughly 25 tons. (I am rounding down a bit) not only would delivery take forever to actually get if you could get it... Now you have to store it somewhere strong and safe, hopefully with nobody knowing.

Buying and selling has other costs in storage and time which most fund managers don't want. They get the same commission if investors think they have gold in the portfolio even if they don't physically have it. So they buy paper because its easier... And technically cheaper for them. It's saves them the headache of storage, security, etc that comes from actually owning it. It's not in their best interest and fund managers rarely do something not in there best interest.

High priced, wealthy family fund managers usually handle funds and the families themselves hold the physical. Because, after all, if the family prefers physical to digital holdings... They have the funds to order and store it in proportion to their finances and wishes. It is also what a good financial advisor would suggest. (If you prefer physical... You should hold it instead of pay someone else to)

And citizenb... I agree with your likelihood of events and priority list... Though i think we are closer to the more dire scenarios then any other time in my life from what i see.

[sixoclockhold]

Great after reading all these winded posts it's amazing you all come to the same conclusion I been spreading for a few years now:

We're going to the Moon ! 2017

Stawks like Gold/Silver are highly manipulated for the purposes of the global elite to hoard Da Gold.

It's a Barbarous Relic for sure.

Buy Buy Buy

[Not a Cook]

Uh, when the Hunt brothers tried to corner the market by buying up all the silver 36 years ago, they bought futures contracts on margin. Yea, that's exactly like a guy walking into a pawn store and buying up all the PMs with cash..

I was taught the same thing in business school and it is true that they did use futures contracts on margin. However, that's not the whole story. When I first studied that debacle in depth for myself, I was shocked to learn that the Hunt brothers were actually taking physical delivery and that is (one of the areas) where they ultimately got in trouble (and it's why COMEX contracts ever since have reserved the right for settlement to be made in cash rather than via physical delivery). They bought from COMEX because, quite simply, they could have bought out every silver dealer and coin store in America and still not have been able to amass the amount of silver they received from COMEX contracts.

The Hunt brothers' biggest problems were GREED and a system (COMEX, CBOT, CFTC, Fed, etc.) that did not like what they were doing and were more than willing to change rules after-the-fact. Amazingly enough, the margin call wouldn't have even hurt them if the board hadn't literally changed the rules after-the-fact and had actually made the contractually-required physical delivery.

There's a LOT of info. out there about what the Hunts were doing that should be included in the narrative that is totally overlooked but, if it were considered, would change the analysis considerably. Here's an interesting video I found that brings up a few of the more interesting points and commonly overlooked points that ought to be considered: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swrrAQBsEE0

There's a lot more to their story (such as what making physical delivery would have done to the COMEX and who sat on the COMEX board at the time), but that's way more than I care to revisit in a post.

Here's a "copy and paste job" about the way the CFTC/CBOT/Fed ended up changing the rules to crush the Hunts:
“Bunker Hunt,” Gary Allen noted, “was not a speculator in silver. Speculators are short-term players. They do not buy their holdings to keep, as Hunt was doing and continues to do. People gamble on the future price of pork bellies to make money in a relatively short period — not as a long-term investment. With gold and silver, on the other hand, there are many who — like the Hunts — see the metals as cash and prefer them to paper money. They are investors for the long term.”

The FSKrealityguide financial blog wrote of the Hunts vs. the Insiders' silver showdown:

The CFTC/COMEX/CBOT are the regulators that set the rules for the commodities exchanges. The people sitting on the regulatory body are all financial industry insiders, EACH OF WHICH HAD A HUGE SHORT POSITION IN SILVER! First, they set position limits. The number of silver contracts each person could own was restricted, although the Hunt brothers' existing position was partially grandfathered. Second, THEY BANNED OPENING TRANSACTIONS. ONLY CLOSING TRANSACTIONS WERE ALLOWED. Third, they raised margin requirements for long speculators BUT NOT SHORT SPECULATORS! This forced the Hunt brothers into margin calls, while the short speculators could wait to buy and cover!... The only people [the Hunts] could sell to were the financial industry insiders, who had huge short positions. Knowing the rules of the game had been changed to favor them, the financial industry insiders knew they were going to be able to cover their humongous short position at favorable prices.

The Federal Reserve also joined the party. The Federal Reserve jacked up interest rates. This made it hard for the Hunt brothers to meet the interest payments on their margin debt. Borrowing at five percent to buy silver is a bargain when inflation is 15 percent, but borrowing at 20 percent to buy silver is a ripoff when inflation is 15 percent! The Federal Reserve also issued a special request to banks: They were to stop issuing loans for "speculative activity." The Federal Reserve didn't specifically say they were targeting the Hunt brothers, but everyone knew they were. Without this request by the Federal Reserve, if the banks colluded to stop extending the Hunt brothers credit, they would be guilty of an antitrust violation. When the Federal Reserve said, "Stop lending the Hunt brothers money," the banks felt comfortable colluding to stop loaning the Hunt brothers more money, which is what they wanted to do!

Herbert Hunt later remarked: “To put it in terms of a football analogy: the game starts, the rules are changed, and finally when you get to the last quarter the referee says only the other side can have the ball.” (excerpted from http://www.thenewamerican.com/cultur...-silver-market)

I asked for evidence of manipulation that's isn't intraday trading, and you give me a link to manipulation in intraday trading... I see we're not going to get anywhere on this point.

Did you read the second link I provided? It has nothing to do with intraday trading.

Also... what Deutsche, UBS, etc. are doing isn't merely "intraday trading." Look at the evidence again that has recently been provided by Deutsche Bank. Major banks actively colluding with one another to materially affect prices in order to profit from their trades by shaking out stop losses is not normal "intraday trading". It is not legal.

Yes, I mean for physical. That's what my story explicitly stated.

Well, if you're buying up all available inventory as the price simultaneiously rises, guess what... You're making money. With the price so 'massively manipulated down', the scam blowing up is a huge tailwind. So again, why hasn't this been tried yet?

The Hunt brothers WERE trying to buy physical (and legally they DID buy physical however it was never delivered).

As far as "billion+ money managers" trying to make a profit off trading physical gold: I don't know why they would unless they expected an imminent end to the spot price manipulation. If they ever do have such a strong expectation, I'm sure lots of money will be chasing a very limited physical marketplace.

However, in a market wherein you have a fixed supply but want to acquire a very significant portion of that supply, it is in your best interest to acquire slowly so as not to cause a significant increase in your acquisition cost.

You are still missing the point. If these people shared your belief that there's a massive price suppression scam, they would go all in to reap a huge pay day in the future. How is that not obvious to you?

Why do you assume I assume ANYONE shares my belief?

However, if they DID share my belief, they wouldn't do what you're suggesting until they had a very solid expectation of an imminent end of the spot price manipulation.

You've again missed the point. I'm not talking about hedges or stores of value, I'm talking about what you describe as massive price manipulation/suppression. A completely different topic.

Lol, I didn't bring up the topic of PM price manipulation. If someone is going to make a bold claim like that, I would think they should have some evidence of it being possibly true.

Fair enough. If you want to be the thread police, perhaps give a few tickets to some blatant trolls spammers enthusiastic theory guys. The title of this thread is.....

I'm not the "thread police"; I apologize if I gave that impression. If you re-read the entire thread, you'll see I've stepped on multiple toes on "both sides of the aisle".

Fair enough and a valid question. Even though you haven't answered my questions, I'll answer yours.

I answered yours. Did you like my answer? No. You wouldn't have liked my answer if you asked me 10 years ago to PROVE that LIBOR was manipulated either, though.

I base my preps on where an event sits on the likelihood/consequence matrix I previously mentioned. As such, an (1) earthquake or (2) disruption from civil unrest gets my priority. While a currency or major economic collapse certainly has a very high consequence, I place it's likelihood pretty far down the list. As such, I don't give it a lot of priority. We can go into detail about why or why not an event like that might occur.

To add, if something like that were to happen, some already pretty dire events have occurred. Having preserved wealth via PMs (if PMs actually have value then) would not be the top of my immediate priorities.

If one was truly prepping for a currency/major economic collapse, my suggestion would be to sell everything, move to Oregon/Idaho/Utah, start a self-sustaining lifestyle, preferably with a large family or like-minded friendly community. Do it now as you have the time/resources to make and learn from mistakes, build up practical skills, have access to modern tech, and develop relationships during 'good' times. But... all that sounds a lot harder than buying some gold coins and calling it good. This may surprise you, but I have had a small hedge position in GLD and physical for awhile now.

Thank you for the answer! I think the sentiments you expressed are actually common amongst many here and it wouldn't surprise me to learn that a lot of folks here have done/are doing more or less what you've suggested.

[jeffrice6]

Another never ending thread..........

[the86d]

The physical asset that I am not buying right now is what this guy is selling:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xinr2q_because-i-can_music

The premiums are WAY too high right now.

[the86d]

Where did all these people buy all these STACKS of Zimbabwe 10 trillion dollar notes in bulk?!?!?!?
I need to get in on the papes... I wants to be riz-itch too.

Honestly, since I KNOW many of you probably have them, where can you get a good deal on buying stacks of Zimbabwe dollars? All my searches seem to be pointing to gougers and people looking to get in on the the collector value of Z dollars, but I want a small (?) stack for fun.

Can someone post a link to bulk for a reasonable price, and I know I am late to the game, but is the game up on stacks for cheap?

I searched for about 40 minutes trying to find some that weren't gouging.

[smle-man]

Where did all these people buy all these STACKS of Zimbabwe 10 trillion dollar notes in bulk?!?!?!?
I need to get in on the papes... I wants to be riz-itch too.

Honestly, since I KNOW many of you probably have them, where can you get a good deal on buying stacks of Zimbabwe dollars? All my searches seem to be pointing to gougers and people looking to get in on the the collector value of Z dollars, but I want a small (?) stack for fun.

Can someone post a link to bulk for a reasonable price, and I know I am late to the game, but is the game up on stacks for cheap?

I searched for about 40 minutes trying to find some that weren't gouging.

Coin shop in my area is selling them for about $3 each.

[sixoclockhold]

I'm sure you will be able to get a large stack of Tubman's for $3 bucks just after they come out.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/21/arts/design/tubmans-in-jacksons-out-whats-it-mean.html?_r=0

[GW]

Hell, I'm sitting on over 100 Trillion in Zimbabwe notes.
I'm rich, baby
RICH!!!