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  • #76
    subscriber
    Senior Member
    • Nov 2011
    • 929

    Originally posted by wpage
    Probiotics are a good counter to overuse of antibiotics which can sometimes kill off some of the good bios in you system.

    Probiotic supplements are available w/o scrips.
    After Clindamycin induced my C-diff, and the latency time for it coming back after taking Flagyl became shorter and shorter, I managed to stop the bloody diarrhea overnight by taking Bio-K. All symptoms were gone and normal digestion returned after a week of taking Bio-K daily. This, after losing 30 lb in less than a month, due to the fact that anything I ate would leave undigested after only a few hours.

    I continued taking Bio-K for the next month, whether I needed it or not, because anything was better than shtting blood and feeling like you were going to die.


    Nearly half a million Americans suffer from C. difficile infections in single year. An estimated 15,000 deaths are directly attributable to C. difficile infections, making it a substantial cause of infectious disease death in the United States.
    I was given Clindamycin after having my wisdom teeth extracted because I am allergenic to penicillin. My growing adverse reaction to Flagyl was later identified as developing an allergic response too. Taking more antibiotics to kill the C-diff bacteria just knocked out more of the opposing bacteria. As C-diff forms spores that cling to your gut wall when under chemical attack, it is the first bacteria to regrow after antibiotic treatment stops. Because it then recolonizes unopposed, C-diff takes over in such large numbers that the corrosive toxins it produces erode the gut wall, causing a range of very unpleasant symptoms.

    Bio-K is basically turbo charged yogurt. So very low risk of adverse reaction. There are soy based versions for people who want to avoid milk based products: https://www.biokplus.com/en_ca/scientific-studies


    The medical profession's response to this well understood antibiotic induced problem was more antibiotics. Then when that failed, more anti biotics.

    I researched how I got into the trouble in the first place. The answer was that all the beneficial gut bacteria opposing c-diff has been eliminated by the antibiotics; allowing C-diff to grow out of control. My naive, non-medically trained response was, "then, put them back" in overwhelming numbers. That is what I managed with the Bio-K. By myself.

    So, I achieved what the doctors could not. Not because they lack access to information, but because they treat symptoms rather than causes. For those whose C-diff has advanced to toxic megacolon. "No problem, we can save your life by surgically removing your colon". Cha ching. So, if my attitude seems crappy, this is why.

    More recently, when some doctors asked what chain of events caused C-diff, and how that could be reversed, they ended up with a primitive, but very effective treatment: Fecal transplant. It is 95+% effective, overnight. While this sounds gross, consider that if you are willing to accept another person's blood injected into your veins; why would you fear their digested intestinal contents being injected into yours? Usually, the donor is a healthy family member or trusted friend, rather than a complete stranger.
    Last edited by subscriber; 12-31-2019, 12:30 AM.

    Comment

    • #77
      ChuckD
      Senior Member
      • Nov 2010
      • 1339

      Not sure if I caused this thread to shift from a question about storing up antibiotics to an attack/defense of the medical profession with my comment that “most physicians are in such a hurry that they always go with the most likely fix for the obvious issue.”? I'd clarify this by saying the reason that they prescribe the same antibiotic for the same type of infection (say a nail in the foot = cephalexin) is because it almost always works. I'd say that my comment really was not much different than the response “We treat based on your presentation, and matching your signs and symptoms to likely causes.”.

      So if I started this let me apologize and move on.

      This could be a valuable discussion, especially since it clearly involves medical professionals who have probably seen more infections requiring antibiotics than most of us. Do you have an experience supported position that stockpiling antibiotics is good or bad? Which ones store the longest? Which ones are the most common/easiest to acquire. Are there any suppliers we should be aware of because they sell baking soda as antibiotics? Anything that we should know that hasn't been discussed?

      Ideally we are all hear to gain or share (or both) knowledge related to prepping/survivalism. I've shared my thoughts related to antibiotics, now I eagerly await knowledge from others.

      Comment

      • #78
        Librarian
        Admin and Poltergeist
        CGN Contributor - Lifetime
        • Oct 2005
        • 44640

        I find it surprising how difficult it is to locate professional-level docs on the web that help a doctor pick an antibiotic. (Not that I expect a doctor to ordinarily stop and look stuff up on the web - there's a reason physicians spend years in school!)

        This 1999 article - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1115976/ - gives a flavor, but it seems to rely on info not presented in the article.

        From other reading, it seems the 'most common pathogen' stuff is at least partially 'local knowledge' from patient histories. Different geographic locations may have differing 'most common' pathogens.

        Here's a reasonable, but very limited list - https://www.drugs.com/article/antibiotics.html
        Top 10 List of Common Infections Treated with Antibiotics

        Acne
        Bronchitis
        Conjunctivitis (Pink Eye)
        Otitis Media (Ear Infection)
        Sexually Transmitted Diseases (STD’s)
        Skin or Soft Tissue Infection
        Streptococcal Pharyngitis (Strep Throat)
        Traveler’s diarrhea
        Upper Respiratory Tract Infection
        Urinary Tract Infection (UTI)
        At the drugs.com page, each list entry is a link to that disease, giving symptoms and treatments.

        This Medscape article - https://reference.medscape.com/viewarticle/909634 , must have an account to see it (they're free) - has a few more disease/treatment pairs, but the first trick is knowing which disease ...
        Last edited by Librarian; 12-30-2019, 11:19 PM.
        ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page

        Frozen in 2015, it is falling out of date and I can no longer edit the content. But much of it is still good!

        Comment

        • #79
          miglo
          Senior Member
          • Feb 2013
          • 528

          Originally posted by Librarian
          I find it surprising how difficult it is to locate professional-level docs on the web that help a doctor pick an antibiotic. (Not that I expect a doctor to ordinarily stop and look stuff up on the web - there's a reason physicians spend years in school!)
          What drug a doc chooses to give a patient for whatever symptoms depends on a ton of variables. Just off the top of my head:

          1. His base knowledge of the drug and its efficacy
          2. How much he has kept up his knowledge with the latest and greatest drugs (CMEs, pharm rep dinners, journal articles etc)
          3. His own PERSONAL experience with the efficacy of said drug. This is also may be dependent on the hospital he has trained at. Maybe the doc he trained under really liked a certain drug for a certain problem.
          4. Is the patient allergic to that class of meds? Drug-drug interactions?
          5. This is the big one - what drug is covered by the patient's insurance or what the hospital has on their formulary. Just because the doctor really likes a certain cancer med, doesn't mean he gets to give it to the patient because insurance doesn't cover it. This scenario really sucks and happens ALL THE TIME.
          Last edited by miglo; 12-31-2019, 2:45 AM.

          Comment

          • #80
            SloChicken
            Veteran Member
            • Jul 2012
            • 4533

            Originally posted by miglo
            What drug a doc chooses to give a patient for whatever symptoms depends on a ton of variables. Just off the top of my head:

            1. His base knowledge of the drug and its efficacy
            2. How much he has kept up his knowledge with the latest and greatest drugs (CMEs, pharm rep dinners, journal articles etc)
            3. His own PERSONAL experience with the efficacy of said drug. This is also may be dependent on the hospital he has trained at. Maybe the doc he trained under really liked a certain drug for a certain problem.
            4. Is the patient allergic to that class of meds? Drug-drug interactions?
            5. This is the big one - what drug is covered by the patient's insurance or what the hospital has on their formulary. Just because the doctor really likes a certain cancer med, doesn't mean he gets to give it to the patient because insurance doesn't cover it. This scenario really sucks and happens ALL THE TIME.
            I have had the very issue listed in #5 quite a bit with MRSA pneumonia pts, and requesting zyvoxx which has great efficacy in this realm v. Vanco/levaquin as usual tx protocol.

            I am an APRN, and not MD, so I am merely the squeaky wheel on this one, but certainly feel the pain the MDs/DOs go through on this end.

            Meanwhile people think we are just chucking drugs so we can have a long lunch or watnot ...
            😂
            sigpic

            Originally Posted by Cali-Shooter
            To me, it was a fist-fight, except that I did not counter-attack.

            Comment

            • #81
              miglo
              Senior Member
              • Feb 2013
              • 528

              Originally posted by SloChicken
              Meanwhile people think we are just chucking drugs so we can have a long lunch or watnot ...

              [emoji23]
              I don't even get lunch. I just shovel food into my mouth in-between cases.

              Anyway, I've used alldaychemist or something like that in the past to buy Indian meds. Probably not as cheap as fishabx, but it's "human" meds. Everything is individually packaged, probably why it costs more than say a bottle of amox. Nowadays I order bulk stuff though wife's office (doc too), but I figure most people cant do this.


              Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

              Comment

              • #82
                TheChief
                Senior Member
                • Mar 2011
                • 1865

                So I picked up a PDR and started looking for common drugs to include antibiotics and cant find some common drugs. Also the PDR is arranged by manufacturer so if you only know the drug name...yeah good luck with that.
                All things being equal...

                Comment

                • #83
                  Librarian
                  Admin and Poltergeist
                  CGN Contributor - Lifetime
                  • Oct 2005
                  • 44640

                  Originally posted by TheChief
                  So I picked up a PDR and started looking for common drugs to include antibiotics and cant find some common drugs. Also the PDR is arranged by manufacturer so if you only know the drug name...yeah good luck with that.
                  You seem to have been stuck on Section 1.

                  You need to find Section 2 -
                  Section 2: Page numbers for the drug by brand and generic name (this section is useful especially for unfamiliar drug names--how to write them out).
                  https://study.com/academy/lesson/phy...ntent-use.html

                  If you are a non-healthcare-professional, a PDR 10 years old is probably sufficient; if you happen to personally know a doctor with his/her own office, you might get 'last year's' edition when the doctor replaces the old one.

                  I don't know how old mine is.

                  Also, any of the drug guides for nurses should work (Lippincott, Mosby, PDR). They're pitched a little lower than the PDR, and they usually provide clear descriptions of side effects and expected results if the drugs are actually doing anything useful. They'll also tell you how to administer the drug.

                  Being out of patient care, on-line I find Drugs.com to be good, and I have a free app "Epocrates" on my phone.
                  ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page

                  Frozen in 2015, it is falling out of date and I can no longer edit the content. But much of it is still good!

                  Comment

                  • #84
                    TheChief
                    Senior Member
                    • Mar 2011
                    • 1865

                    Originally posted by Librarian
                    You seem to have been stuck on Section 1.

                    You need to find Section 2 - https://study.com/academy/lesson/phy...ntent-use.html

                    If you are a non-healthcare-professional, a PDR 10 years old is probably sufficient; if you happen to personally know a doctor with his/her own office, you might get 'last year's' edition when the doctor replaces the old one.

                    I don't know how old mine is.

                    Also, any of the drug guides for nurses should work (Lippincott, Mosby, PDR). They're pitched a little lower than the PDR, and they usually provide clear descriptions of side effects and expected results if the drugs are actually doing anything useful. They'll also tell you how to administer the drug.

                    Being out of patient care, on-line I find Drugs.com to be good, and I have a free app "Epocrates" on my phone.

                    Thanks! It wasn't that I was stuck in section 1, I just didn't realize the different reference abilities in section 2. But since you said it was there I looked deeper and found it!

                    I bought a 2016 used copy online for $20ish. I wanted something to reference should the internet be inaccessible. I will look into the nurse's drug guides. Looks like Davis's Drug Guide for Nurses is highly rated.

                    Thanks again.
                    All things being equal...

                    Comment

                    • #85
                      SloChicken
                      Veteran Member
                      • Jul 2012
                      • 4533

                      Originally posted by TheChief
                      Thanks! It wasn't that I was stuck in section 1, I just didn't realize the different reference abilities in section 2. But since you said it was there I looked deeper and found it!

                      I bought a 2016 used copy online for $20ish. I wanted something to reference should the internet be inaccessible. I will look into the nurse's drug guides. Looks like Davis's Drug Guide for Nurses is highly rated.

                      Thanks again.
                      Skyscape is a great and comprehensive app. It is my go prehospital reference,

                      You can find it on the app store on your mobile device
                      sigpic

                      Originally Posted by Cali-Shooter
                      To me, it was a fist-fight, except that I did not counter-attack.

                      Comment

                      • #86
                        wpage
                        Calguns Addict
                        • Jan 2011
                        • 6071

                        Truth...

                        Note...
                        Originally posted by subscriber
                        After Clindamycin induced my C-diff, and the latency time for it coming back after taking Flagyl became shorter and shorter, I managed to stop the bloody diarrhea overnight by taking Bio-K. All symptoms were gone and normal digestion returned after a week of taking Bio-K daily. This, after losing 30 lb in less than a month, due to the fact that anything I ate would leave undigested after only a few hours.

                        I continued taking Bio-K for the next month, whether I needed it or not, because anything was better than shtting blood and feeling like you were going to die.



                        Anti biotics kill good biotics!

                        I was given Clindamycin after having my wisdom teeth extracted because I am allergenic to penicillin. My growing adverse reaction to Flagyl was later identified as developing an allergic response too. Taking more antibiotics to kill the C-diff bacteria just knocked out more of the opposing bacteria. As C-diff forms spores that cling to your gut wall when under chemical attack, it is the first bacteria to regrow after antibiotic treatment stops. Because it then recolonizes unopposed, C-diff takes over in such large numbers that the corrosive toxins it produces erode the gut wall, causing a range of very unpleasant symptoms.

                        Bio-K is basically turbo charged yogurt. So very low risk of adverse reaction. There are soy based versions for people who want to avoid milk based products: https://www.biokplus.com/en_ca/scientific-studies


                        The medical profession's response to this well understood antibiotic induced problem was more antibiotics. Then when that failed, more anti biotics.

                        I researched how I got into the trouble in the first place. The answer was that all the beneficial gut bacteria opposing c-diff has been eliminated by the antibiotics; allowing C-diff to grow out of control. My naive, non-medically trained response was, "then, put them back" in overwhelming numbers. That is what I managed with the Bio-K. By myself.

                        So, I achieved what the doctors could not. Not because they lack access to information, but because they treat symptoms rather than causes. For those whose C-diff has advanced to toxic megacolon. "No problem, we can save your life by surgically removing your colon". Cha ching. So, if my attitude seems crappy, this is why.

                        More recently, when some doctors asked what chain of events caused C-diff, and how that could be reversed, they ended up with a primitive, but very effective treatment: Fecal transplant. It is 95+% effective, overnight. While this sounds gross, consider that if you are willing to accept another person's blood injected into your veins; why would you fear their digested intestinal contents being injected into yours? Usually, the donor is a healthy family member or trusted friend, rather than a complete stranger.
                        God so loved the world He gave His only Son... Believe in Him and have everlasting life.
                        John 3:16

                        NRA,,, Lifer

                        United Air Epic Fail Video ...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u99Q7pNAjvg

                        Comment

                        • #87
                          DGoodale
                          CGN/CGSSA Contributor
                          CGN Contributor
                          • Nov 2003
                          • 1139

                          Hey guys I hate asking but I'm in a bind and need some assistance. I'm traveling in SoCal (Thousand Oaks) and I've ended up w/scarlet fever. My son had it a couple weeks ago too and the doc prescribed amoxicillin and it knocked it down for him but I don't have access to a doc here in the area w/o walking into an E-room or urgent care and getting hit w/ massive fees. I'm allergic to penicillin based antibiotics, what can I take to kill the rash and where can I find some?

                          Comment

                          • #88
                            creampuff
                            • Jan 2006
                            • 3730

                            Originally posted by DGoodale
                            Hey guys I hate asking but I'm in a bind and need some assistance. I'm traveling in SoCal (Thousand Oaks) and I've ended up w/scarlet fever. My son had it a couple weeks ago too and the doc prescribed amoxicillin and it knocked it down for him but I don't have access to a doc here in the area w/o walking into an E-room or urgent care and getting hit w/ massive fees. I'm allergic to penicillin based antibiotics, what can I take to kill the rash and where can I find some?
                            By kill the rash , do you mean you are going to give yourself amoxicillin and then treat the rash later? Are you sure it's just a rash, and not something leading to anaphylaxis. Which would mean death or an even more massive ER bill.

                            Traditionally PCN allergic patients may receive clindamycin or macrolides for Strep A pyogenes. But there are more strains being found to be resistant to macrolides. And if you don't dose yourself properly on clindamycin, you can put yourself onto the path of C.difficile. Again another major hospital bill.

                            Please go see a doctor. They will know the resistance of the strains in your area. And properly dose you. Do not depend on CG for your livelihood.

                            Comment

                            • #89
                              DGoodale
                              CGN/CGSSA Contributor
                              CGN Contributor
                              • Nov 2003
                              • 1139

                              Originally posted by creampuff
                              By kill the rash , do you mean you are going to give yourself amoxicillin and then treat the rash later? Are you sure it's just a rash, and not something leading to anaphylaxis. Which would mean death or an even more massive ER bill.

                              Traditionally PCN allergic patients may receive clindamycin or macrolides for Strep A pyogenes. But there are more strains being found to be resistant to macrolides. And if you don't dose yourself properly on clindamycin, you can put yourself onto the path of C.difficile. Again another major hospital bill.

                              Please go see a doctor. They will know the resistance of the strains in your area. And properly dose you. Do not depend on CG for your livelihood.
                              Thanks, after a little more research w/ my insurance I was able to get a video consult and a prescription was issued to a local pharm.

                              Comment

                              • #90
                                SloChicken
                                Veteran Member
                                • Jul 2012
                                • 4533

                                Originally posted by DGoodale
                                Hey guys I hate asking but I'm in a bind and need some assistance. I'm traveling in SoCal (Thousand Oaks) and I've ended up w/scarlet fever. My son had it a couple weeks ago too and the doc prescribed amoxicillin and it knocked it down for him but I don't have access to a doc here in the area w/o walking into an E-room or urgent care and getting hit w/ massive fees. I'm allergic to penicillin based antibiotics, what can I take to kill the rash and where can I find some?
                                A little benadryl will help the anaphylactic/allergy reaction.

                                That said, urgent cares aren’t all that bad for a consult, maybe $100-$200 bucks at most, just tell the doc up front about your cost concerns, along with allergy hustory
                                Last edited by SloChicken; 01-09-2020, 12:53 PM.
                                sigpic

                                Originally Posted by Cali-Shooter
                                To me, it was a fist-fight, except that I did not counter-attack.

                                Comment

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