Firearms in Forests and Parks

[Bad Voodoo]

For the most part, all "official" roads, dirt or otherwise in the Nat'l Forrest system have a road number, so any road that has been assigned a road number is offically a road. There are, however, a lot of "un-official" roads in the Nat'l Forrest that have been created over the years by forrest users. Those roads have been the subject of a suit against the National Forrest, and all of the roads in their lands have been inventoried and mapped. At the present time, all of these created non-Forest Service roads are offically closed to motor vehicle traffic. Since these roads are in actuality not roads, I would assume that you can loaded open carry on them. If anyone has reason to talk to a Nat'l Forrest ranger about firearms, it would be interesting to hear their take on it.

If you plan to drive in the Nat'l Forrest, it would be wise to get a current map that shows the legal roads for vehicle travel (and illegal for LOC), as the closed roads are all still there, but are not for motor vehicle use any longer. I do not know the status of the suit, and whether or not any of these roads are ever going to be opened again or not.

Roads are roads only when they aren't roads as indicated by the secret handshake. When they aren't roads, don't LOC if the non-roads can be identified as roads by the USFS, as indicated by pencil lines drawn on homemade maps carried by USFS personnel. Now that the gub'ment has clarified their "rules" for you, feel free to LOC at your own risk!

Gawd, how I hope for the day when my right to keep and bear arms actually means keep and bear arms.

[evmo]

No. "within 150 yards of any structure/development or occupied area" and "within or into a cave, across or on a road or body of water" Not within 150 yards of a road.

Ah ok. That makes a lot more sense.

[MudCamper]

Ok some good info. So If I'm on a trail that crosses a NFS numbered road I have to unload once I get 150yds away, walk across the road, and then reload once I'm across and 150yds into the trees, Lame. With my luck these days I'm going to encounter an axe wielding tweeker guarding his lab with a pair of attack bears at 145yds!

No. "within 150 yards of any structure/development or occupied area" and "within or into a cave, across or on a road or body of water" Not within 150 yards of a road.

[evmo]

Ok some good info. So If I'm on a trail that crosses a NFS numbered road I have to unload once I get 150yds away, walk across the road, and then reload once I'm across and 150yds into the trees, Lame. With my luck these days I'm going to encounter an axe wielding tweeker guarding his lab with a pair of attack bears at 145yds!

[fairfaxjim]

So no LOC on roads. UOC on roads. Does a dirt "fire road" qualify as a road? Do what you feel comfortable with, but I'd advise caution. I frequent the Mendocino national forest, and some of the "fire roads" (crappy 4WD roads) are actually county roads and the prohibition definitely applies there.

For the most part, all "official" roads, dirt or otherwise in the Nat'l Forrest system have a road number, so any road that has been assigned a road number is offically a road. There are, however, a lot of "un-official" roads in the Nat'l Forrest that have been created over the years by forrest users. Those roads have been the subject of a suit against the National Forrest, and all of the roads in their lands have been inventoried and mapped. At the present time, all of these created non-Forest Service roads are offically closed to motor vehicle traffic. Since these roads are in actuality not roads, I would assume that you can loaded open carry on them. If anyone has reason to talk to a Nat'l Forrest ranger about firearms, it would be interesting to hear their take on it.

If you plan to drive in the Nat'l Forrest, it would be wise to get a current map that shows the legal roads for vehicle travel (and illegal for LOC), as the closed roads are all still there, but are not for motor vehicle use any longer. I do not know the status of the suit, and whether or not any of these roads are ever going to be opened again or not.

[CaliforniaCarry]

4313. Weapons and Traps

...

Firearms not having a cartridge in any portion of the mechanism, traps, nets, bows and arrows, other unloaded weapons or devices may be possessed within temporary lodging or mechanical mode of conveyance when such implements are rendered temporarily inoperable or are packed, cased, or stored in a manner that will prevent their ready use.

http://www.parks.ca.gov/default.asp?page_id=21301

For state parks, you should add that unloaded firearms are also permitted in "temporary lodging". I'm not sure exactly what that means, but I would assume that a tent or camper would qualify.

The "not having a cartridge in any portion of the mechanism" is kind of vague. Are magazines considered to be a "portion of the mechanism"?

[Gunaria]

Good informative thread, mods please make this a sticky.

[MudCamper]

I'd like a little more clarification on this. Am I allowed to walk along an unpaved fire road in a NF while I LOC? I thought there was a 1/4 mile minimum distance rule for shooting by access roads. Does this include fire roads, jeep trails and such?

Federal 36 CFR 261.10 (d) states:

The following are prohibited:

(d) Discharging a firearm or any other implement capable of taking human life, causing injury, or damaging property as follows:

(1) In or within 150 yards of a residence, building, campsite, developed recreation site or occupied area, or
(2) Across or on a National Forest System road or a body of water adjacent thereto, or in any manner or place whereby any person or property is exposed to injury or damage as a result in such discharge.
(3) Into or within any cave.

And 12031 states:

(f) As used in this section, "prohibited area" means any place where it is unlawful to discharge a weapon.

So no LOC on roads. UOC on roads. Does a dirt "fire road" qualify as a road? Do what you feel comfortable with, but I'd advise caution. I frequent the Mendocino national forest, and some of the "fire roads" (crappy 4WD roads) are actually county roads and the prohibition definitely applies there.

[new2me]

Ah, thanks for this; very helpful.

[evmo]

"
*2 - Loaded Open Carry is legal in areas where shooting is not prohibited

I'd like a little more clarification on this. Am I allowed to walk along an unpaved fire road in a NF while I LOC? I thought there was a 1/4 mile minimum distance rule for shooting by access roads. Does this include fire roads, jeep trails and such?

[MudCamper]

Does this new news have any effect on this?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090520/...tional_parks_8

Yes. See the HR 627 note in the second post in this thread.

[krzgoat]

Does this new news have any effect on this?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090520/ap_on_go_co/us_guns_national_parks_8

[MudCamper]

Firearms in Forests and Parks - Scenarios

A common source of confusion is assuming that one code exemption applies to all codes. Be careful not to fall into this trap.

For example, it is a common misbelief that it is always legal to possess a loaded firearm in one's campsite. While it is true that 26055 exempts you from 25850 (loaded), and 25605(a) exempts you from 25400 (concealed), it does not prevent your violation and conviction of some other local, state, or federal code.

Another common mistake is confusing concealing with loading. These are addressed by two separate laws with two separate penal code sections.

Scenario 1: You are in a California State Park, in your campsite, carrying an unloaded handgun.
Status: illegal - violation of CCR Title 14, Div 3, Chap 1, s 4313, possessing a firearm in a State Park

Scenario 2: You are in a National Forest, or a National Park, or on BLM land, in your campsite, carrying a loaded handgun openly or concealed.
Status: legal - 26055 exempts you from 25850 (loaded) and 25605(a) exempts you from 25400 (concealed)

Scenario 3: You are in a National Forest, walking from your campsite to a public pit toilet, carrying a loaded handgun openly in a belt holster.
Status: illegal - 25850 violation - you are not in your own campsite, and are in an area where shooting is prohibited, so 25850 applies **

Scenario 4: You are in a National Forest, walking from your campsite to a public pit toilet, carrying an unloaded handgun openly in a belt holster.
Status: was legal pre-2012, the current legal status is not clear at this time (AB144/26350/26388)

Scenario 5: A licensed fisherman is fishing a stream in the National Forest, within 150 yards of a developed campsite. He is carrying a loaded concealed handgun.
Status: illegal - while not violating 25400 (concealed) because of 25640, he is violating 25850 (loaded) because the nearby campsite triggers the "prohibited area" language **

Scenario 6: A licensed hunter or fisherman is traveling to his hunting or fishing expedition, carrying an unloaded concealed firearm. He passes a K-12 school during his trip.
Status: illegal - while not violating 25400 (concealed) because of 25640, he is violating 626.9 by passing within 1000 feet of a school without locking up his handgun


** - This entire thread presumes that the "prohibited area" language in 25850 is triggered by the various federal shooting restrictions. This is the more cautious interpretation, however, there are other interpretations.

[MudCamper]

Firearms in Forests and Parks - Code Citations

Following are citations of all applicable state and federal laws.


State PC 25400 (formerly 12025) (abridged)

25400. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when the person does any of the following:

(1) Carries concealed within any vehicle that is under the person's control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.

(2) Carries concealed upon the person any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.

(b) A firearm carried openly in a belt holster is not concealed within the meaning of this section.

25605. (a) Section 25400 ... shall not apply to or affect any citizen of the United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state ... who carries, either openly or concealed, anywhere within the citizen's or legal resident's place of residence, place of business, or on private property owned or lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal resident...

Note: PC 25610 and 25505-25595 (formerly 12026.1 and 12026.2) provide exemptions to 25400 for transporting handguns unloaded in a locked case or vehicle trunk.

Note: PC 25400 only applies to hand guns, not rifles or shotguns, which may be concealed.


State PC 25640 (formerly 12027(g)) exemption to 25400

25640. Section 25400 does not apply to, or affect, licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing expedition.

State PC 25850 (formerly 12031) (abridged)

25850. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when the person carries a loaded firearm on the person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

26055. Nothing in Section 25850 shall prevent any person from having a loaded weapon, if it is otherwise lawful, at the person's place of residence, including any temporary residence or campsite.

17030. As used in this part, "prohibited area" means any place where it is unlawful to discharge a weapon.

16840. (b) (1) A firearm shall be deemed to be "loaded" when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm.

Note: In People v. Clark (1996), the California Court of Appeal clarified that in order to be "loaded" a firearm must have ammunition "placed into a position from which it can be fired". It even went so far as to point out as an example of what is not loaded to include shells attached to a shotgun inside a buttstock shell carrier. And loaded detachable magazines are not loaded firearms. For more details, see Defining loaded in California.


State PC 26350 (AB144) (abridged)

26350. (a) (1) A person is guilty of openly carrying an unloaded handgun when that person carries upon his or her person an exposed and unloaded handgun...

26366. Section 26350 does not apply to, or affect, the open carrying of an unloaded handgun by a licensed hunter while engaged in hunting or while transporting that handgun when going to or returning from that hunting expedition.

26383. Paragraph (1) of subdivision (a) of Section 26350 does not apply to, or affect, the open carrying of an unloaded handgun by a person when done within a place of business, a place of residence, or on private property...

26388. Section 26350 does not apply to, or affect, the open carrying of an unloaded handgun on publicly owned land, if the possession and use of a handgun is specifically permitted by the managing agency of the land and the person carrying that handgun is in lawful possession of that handgun.

State PC 26400 (AB1527) (abridged)

26400. (a) A person is guilty of carrying an unloaded firearm that is not a handgun in an incorporated city or city and county when that person carries upon his or her person an unloaded firearm that is not a handgun outside a vehicle while in the incorporated city or city and county.

State CCR Title 14, Div 3, Chap 1, s 4313 (abridged) (CA State Parks)

(a) No person shall carry, possess or discharge across, in or into any portion of any unit any weapon, firearm...

(c) Firearms not having a cartridge in any portion of the mechanism ... may be possessed within temporary lodging or mechanical mode of conveyance when such implements are rendered temporarily inoperable or are packed, cased, or stored in a manner that will prevent their ready use.

State CPRC 5003.1 (abridged) (CA State Parks)

Hunting shall not be permitted in any unit now in the state park system ... Hunting may only be permitted in new recreational areas and state marine recreational management areas
that are developed for that use

Federal 36 CFR 261.10 (d) (National Forests)

The following are prohibited:

(d) Discharging a firearm or any other implement capable of taking human life, causing injury, or damaging property as follows:

(1) In or within 150 yards of a residence, building, campsite, developed recreation site or occupied area, or
(2) Across or on a National Forest System road or a body of water adjacent thereto, or in any manner or place whereby any person or property is exposed to injury or damage as a result in such discharge.
(3) Into or within any cave.

Federal 36 CFR 261.58 (abridged) (National Forests)

When provided by an order (per 36 CFR 261.50), the following are prohibited:

(m) Discharging a firearm, air rifle, or gas gun.

Federal 36 CFR 261.57 (abridged) (Wilderness Areas only in NFs)

When provided by an order (per 36 CFR 261.50), the following are prohibited:

(c) Possessing a firearm or firework.

Federal 43 CFR 8364 (abridged) (BLM lands)

8364.1 Closure and restriction orders.

(a) To protect persons, property, and public lands and resources, the authorized officer may issue an order to close or restrict use of designated public lands.

(The closures and restrictions can include the use of firearms.)


Federal 43 CFR 8365 (abridged) (BLM lands)

8365.2-5 Public health, safety and comfort.

On developed recreation sites and areas, unless otherwise authorized, no person shall:

(a) Discharge or use firearms, other weapons, or fireworks

Federal 36 CFR 2.4 (a) (National Parks) (Section (i) and (ii) not enforceable unless state laws are also violated)

(a)(1) Except as otherwise provided in this section and parts 7 (special regulations) and 13 (Alaska regulations), the following are prohibited:

(i) Possessing a weapon, trap or net
(ii) Carrying a weapon, trap or net
(iii) Using a weapon, trap or net

IMPORTANT NOTES: On May 22, 2009, President Obama signed HR 627 into law. This overrides 36 CFR 2.4 (a) and 50 CFR 27.42 effective February 22, 2010, and firearms are now permitted in NPs and NWRs subject to state laws. In California, the Park Service believes that 36 CFR 2.4 (a) (iii) (prohibits the use of firearms, i.e. shooting) still applies, and that this triggers the "prohibited area" language of 12031/25850 and therefore loading is not legal. In addition to this, the passage of AB144 has similarly banned UOC (of handguns) in the NPs effective Jan 1, 2012. UOC of long guns is legal everywhere except in federal facilities (18 USC 930, buildings with federal employees and no-firearms signs posted) (more details). LOC, UOC, UCC, and LCC (of handguns or long guns) is legal in one's campsite (PC 26055, 26383, & 25605). And LCC is legal everywhere except federal facilities with a CA CCW permit.

H.R.627 s 512 (b):

(b) Protecting the Right of Individuals To Bear arms in Units of the National Park System and the National Wildlife Refuge System- The Secretary of the Interior shall not promulgate or enforce any regulation that prohibits an individual from possessing a firearm including an assembled or functional firearm in any unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System if--

(1) the individual is not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing the firearm; and
(2) the possession of the firearm is in compliance with the law of the State in which the unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System is located.

Federal 50 CFR 27.42 (National Wildlife Refuges) (Also not enforceable after 2/22/10)

Federal 36 CFR 327.13 (Corps of Engineers)

(a) The possession of loaded firearms, ammunition, loaded projectile firing devices, bows and arrows, crossbows, or other weapons is prohibited unless

UPDATE: 1/10/14 - firearms currently permitted for self-defense

State Fish and Game Code s 2006

It is unlawful to possess a loaded rifle or shotgun in any vehicle or conveyance or its attachments which is standing on or along or is being driven on or along any public highway or other way open to the public.

A rifle or shotgun shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell in the firing chamber but not when the only cartridges or shells are in the magazine.

State Fish and Game Code s 3004

(a) It is unlawful for any person, other than the owner, person in possession of the premises, or a person having the express permission of the owner or person in possession of the premises, to hunt or to discharge while hunting, any firearm or other deadly weapon within 150 yards of any occupied dwelling house, residence, or other building or any barn or other outbuilding used in connection therewith. The 150-yard area is a "safety zone."

(b) It is unlawful for any person to intentionally discharge any firearm or release any arrow or crossbow bolt over or across any public road or way open to the public, in an unsafe manner.

A printer friendly version of this post is available here.

[MudCamper]

Yes this thread is now unbearably long, but you will most likely find the answers you need right here in the first two posts, which I keep up-to-date.

"Can I possess/carry my handgun/rifle/shotgun openly/loaded/concealed/otherwise when I am hiking/camping/hunting/other in the forest/park/campground/wilderness in California?"

First, it is very important to understand that there are many different types of "forests" and "parks" and they are all run by different government agencies with different restrictions.

Here is a list of the most common types of parks, forests, and public lands, and their respective firearms restrictions:

- National Parks, Federal, National Park Service, US Department of the Interior - firearms now permitted but CA law severely restricts - see *1
- National Forests, Federal, US Forest Service, US Department of Agriculture - firearms and shooting welcomed but CA state law applies - see *2
- BLM Land, Federal, Bureau of Land Management, US Department of the Interior - firearms and shooting permitted but CA state law applies - see *2
- State Parks, State, California Department of Parks and Recreation - firearms prohibited - see *3
- Regional Parks, some are county owned (example), some are city owned - firearms often prohibited per local ordinance findlaw.com municode.com

*1 - National Parks Details:

- The firearms prohibition in NPs and NWRs was lifted on 2/22/10. See the "Important Notes" about HR 267 in the second post for more details.
- UOC of handguns is not legal in NPs effective 1/1/12 as a result of AB144 (PC 26350) and the NP's blanket "no shooting anywhere" policy
- LOC, UOC, UCC, and LCC are all legal in one's campsite. (PC 26055, 26383, & 25605)
- Since NPs can be near/within urban areas, school zones can be an issue. Unlocked/operable firearms are not allowed within 1000 feet of a K-12 school.
- CA CCW permit holders may LCC anywhere in NPs except in federal facilities (buildings with federal employees and no-firearms signs posted).

*2 - National Forest and BLM Details:

- LOC and UOC are legal everywhere except "prohibited areas" (areas where shooting is prohibited)
- LOC, UOC, UCC, and LCC are all legal in one's campsite. (PC 26055, 26383, & 25605)
- Shooting is prohibited within 150 yards of any residence, building, campsite, or developed site ("prohibited areas")
- Shooting is prohibited on or across roads or bodies of water ("prohibited areas")
- common opinion is that UOC of handguns is now illegal in "prohibited areas" of NF/BLM (AB144 / PC 26350) not all agree (PC 26388)
- Forest administrators have the authority to prohibit shooting in other areas of the NF but must clearly post this information ("prohibited areas")
- IMPORTANT NOTICE - some NFs are now banning shooting almost entirely - see this post - this makes the entire forest a "prohibited area"
- BLM administrators may post closures and restrictions regarding firearms use ("prohibited areas")

- LCC is legal for licensed hunters/fishermen, while hunting/fishing, but only where shooting is not prohibited (PC 25640)
- UCC is legal for licensed hunters/fishermen while hunting/fishing and while traveling to/from hunting/fishing expeditions (PC 25640)
- UOC is legal for licensed hunters while hunting and while traveling to/from hunting expeditions (PC 26366)
- CA CCW permit holders may disregard most of these restrictions and LCC in NF/BLM

*3 - State Parks Details:

- LUCC is the only legal way for non CCW permit holders to carry in CA State Parks
- firearms permitted in vehicles and temporary lodgings when unloaded and "packed, cased or stored in a manner that will prevent their ready use"
- CA CCW permit holders may apparently LCC firearms in California State Parks

Acronyms used in this thread:

UOC - unloaded open carry
LOC - loaded open carry
UCC - unloaded concealed carry
LCC - loaded concealed carry
LUCC - locked unloaded concealed carry (called LCC in this thread which will cause confusion)

Additional types of public lands:

- Wilderness Areas, Federal, within or part of a National Park - firearms now permitted but CA law severely restricts *1
- Wilderness Areas, Federal, within or part of a National Forest - shooting and/or possession sometimes prohibited, check with local ranger station
- National Monuments, Federal, various agencies but usually the NPS - firearms now permitted but CA law severely restricts *1
- National Wildlife Refuges, Federal, US Fish and Wildlife Service, US Department of the Interior - firearms now permitted but CA law severely restricts *1
- US Army Corp of Engineers Recreation Areas (SF, Sac, LA) - firearms prohibited - Update: legal challenge continuing
- DFG Wildlife Areas and Reserves, State, California Department of Fish & Game - firearms restrictions vary (usually very prohibitive)
- Demonstration State Forests, State, California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection (CDF / CAL Fire) - firearms permitted, some restrictions - (details)
- PG&E Recreation Areas - no official restrictions, generally the same as neighboring federal lands, state laws apply (details)
- Private lands and privately owned campgrounds - firearms either permitted or restricted by the owner
- Open Space Districts (a form of CA Special District) - unknown, TBD
- Land Trusts - unknown, TBD

This thread's focus is on parks/forests/campgrounds/etc. in California. Not all of the specifics and subtleties of carry, loaded, and transport laws are covered here. So,

- For specifics about transporting firearms, see the CGF wiki page on transporting
- For details about the definitions of loaded, see Defining loaded in California.

See the second post in this thread for summaries and links to all relevant federal and state laws.

A printer friendly version of this post is available here.

Additional PDF documents that may be useful to carry with you are linked here.

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