Firearms in Forests and Parks

[locosway]

I have an important question, how do you determine the vicinity of your "campsite" for LOC? Is it necessary to surround your site with cones and rope to establish a campsite line? Or is it determined another way?

I think the technical way is to have a few friends fart continuously while you walk away from the campsite. As soon as you stop hearing their farts, you've exited the campsite.

[joelberg]

I have an important question, how do you determine the vicinity of your "campsite" for LOC? Is it necessary to surround your site with cones and rope to establish a campsite line? Or is it determined another way?

[outdoorman]

this might be a dumb question but is a OHV / 4wd (off highway vehicle) trail considered a road?

[MudCamper]

I am not a serious hunter--I have not killed anything in 25 years. The $43.50 I spend on a hunting license every year is a good insurance policy.

FYI, coyote season is open all year, and handguns are a legal method of take. Also know that using the hunting exemptions does come at a price. Wardens can search you, your vehicles, and your gear.

I now have some pre-1994 guns that need to be registered with DOJ.

No need to do that. Nothing illegal about possessing unregistered firearms.

[markm]

BUY AND MAINTAIN YOUR HUNTING LICENSE!

Hello All,

Thanks to Mudcamper et allia, I am starting to get a handle on the new laws and am shocked by how badly our state is trampling our creator granted, constitutionally gauranteed, and SCOTUS protected rights. Your 2A and 4A rights are under complete assault [PC 25850 (b) and (g), (h)--your 4A rights are dead!].

The exemptions in PC 25640 and PC 26366 require somebody like me to maintain a hunting license. That license may keep me out of jail if I make one little, tiny, otherwise insignificant mistake while transporting, hunting, plinking, or hiking with my guns in areas where it is legal to do so.

I am not a serious hunter--I have not killed anything in 25 years. The $43.50 I spend on a hunting license every year is a good insurance policy.

I now have some pre-1994 guns that need to be registered with DOJ.

markm

[markm]

You state this as though I did not cite my sources. It appears to me that you are not reading the first 2 posts in the thread, where all of this has been posted for a couple of years now.




In the first post of the thread, I list the PC sections. In the second post of the thread I link to the PC sections, and quote them in the post. Please go back and read them there.

And nothing was stricken. All the firearms laws were rearranged and renumber effective Jan 1 this year. I include all the old section numbers and the new ones in the second post of the thread.

Hey Mudcamper,

I did not mean anything with that post. I thought it was a good addendum to what you wrote. Some of us are trying to get up to speed on this issue and we don't have the depth of knowledge that you do. Cites really do help as we don't have to go on a treasure hunt.

I really do appreciate your service!!!

I know I am annoying you; however, get used to it as I will keep coming back to you until I get a really good handle on these issues.

Thanks for the redirect to the beginning of this thread.

markm

PS: I did read your original post before, but am suffering from TMI.

[MudCamper]

Hey all,

Here is a citation to back-up Mudcamper's post:

"(a) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when the...

You state this as though I did not cite my sources. It appears to me that you are not reading the first 2 posts in the thread, where all of this has been posted for a couple of years now.

Question for Mudcamper:
What PC section allows us to conceal carry with a hunting license? PC 12027 (g) has been stricken, right?

In the first post of the thread, I list the PC sections. In the second post of the thread I link to the PC sections, and quote them in the post. Please go back and read them there.

And nothing was stricken. All the firearms laws were rearranged and renumber effective Jan 1 this year. I include all the old section numbers and the new ones in the second post of the thread.

[markm]

In the context of these laws and National Parks* I think "use" could be about "discharge"

Are there any NPs that allow hunting as an exemption? I don't know of any in CA.

If you are correct in your idea that "use" equals UOC - that still leaves the idea unsettled whether or not National Parks specifically allow it...in fact they specifically defer to the states. Its a very circular problem

*Note: I'm not considering BLM and NF in this context, only National Parks

Hello mej,

I don't know if any NPs allow hunting in Kali. NPs in other states definately do (Grand Teton and Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore do).

Many National Wildlife Refuges in Kali do allow discharge of guns for deer and waterfoul hunting.

I agree that this is a circular problem, which is why my dogged determination to gain opinions on this issue.

thanks,

markm

[mej16489]

I never thought that the term "use" of a firearm means to shoot it when the context here is UOC. I assumed that UOC was the "use" referred to in this statute as 26388 is an exemption to the 26350 ban on Unloaded Open Carry.

I hate pronouns and general terms. Laws should be specifically written (Oh yea, SCOTUS has a rule called the "void for vagueness doctrine").

In the context of these laws and National Parks* I think "use" could be about "discharge"

Are there any NPs that allow hunting as an exemption? I don't know of any in CA.

If you are correct in your idea that "use" equals UOC - that still leaves the idea unsettled whether or not National Parks specifically allow it...in fact they specifically defer to the states. Its a very circular problem

*Note: I'm not considering BLM and NF in this context, only National Parks

[markm]

26350. (a) (1) (C) Makes UOC illegal in a "public place in a prohibited area of a county or city"

17030. As used in this part, "prohibited area" means any place
where it is unlawful to discharge a weapon.

26388. Section 26350 does not apply to, or affect, the open
carrying of an unloaded handgun on publicly owned land, if the
possession and use of a handgun is specifically permitted by the
managing agency of the land and the person carrying that handgun is
in lawful possession of that handgun.

National Parks defer to the state in which they reside with regard to possession...

However, most National parks do regulate discharge (its generally prohibited)

So, since discharge is generally prohibited (without an exception) in a National Park 26350 applies and makes it illegal. 26388 cannot be used as an exception because although possession is permitted, use is not. Both conditions must be specifically permitted by themanaging agency for the exemption apply.

Wow,

Thanks for the response.

You have defined the word "use" very narrowily. Accordingly, "use" means discharging your gun?

I never thought that the term "use" of a firearm means to shoot it when the context here is UOC. I assumed that UOC was the "use" referred to in this statute as 26388 is an exemption to the 26350 ban on Unloaded Open Carry.

After all, brandishing a gun does not denote dishcharge, but does denote "using" the gun to scare people. I guess brandishing is legal because it denotes waiving a hunk of steel (sarcasm off).

I guess I got confused because PC 26350 refers to UOC in prohibited areas where discharge is not permitted. Wow, the wording of this statute is really vague.

I guess we will have to wait for a court to determine if "use" means UOC or if "use" means firing your gun.

I hate pronouns and general terms. Laws should be specifically written (Oh yea, SCOTUS has a rule called the "void for vagueness doctrine").

Thanks for your reply.

markm

[mej16489]

Hello Mudcamper,

You are a resource for those of us trying to understand the new laws.

Unfortunately, you are bashing and not answering the question that I have asked--so be it (specifially, why does PC 26388 not apply to National Parks as the federal governemnt has given permission to OC {"...Section 512 refers to "an assembled and functional firearm," we interpret that phrase to include loaded firearms"}) citation from Mudcamper's previously cited letter from NPS.

Referring me back to PC 26350 aint working.

You are correct, between the two of us, this issue is dead.

markm

26350. (a) (1) (C) Makes UOC illegal in a "public place in a prohibited area of a county or city"

17030. As used in this part, "prohibited area" means any place
where it is unlawful to discharge a weapon.

26388. Section 26350 does not apply to, or affect, the open
carrying of an unloaded handgun on publicly owned land, if the
possession and use of a handgun is specifically permitted by the
managing agency of the land and the person carrying that handgun is
in lawful possession of that handgun.

National Parks defer to the state in which they reside with regard to possession...

However, most National parks do regulate discharge (its generally prohibited)

So, since discharge is generally prohibited (without an exception) in a National Park 26350 applies and makes it illegal. 26388 cannot be used as an exception because although possession is permitted, use is not. Both conditions must be specifically permitted by themanaging agency for the exemption apply.

[markm]

Is this in a National Forest? If yes, than you can UOC or LOC anywhere shooting is not prohibited with no need for a hunting or fishing license. A hunting or fishing license will let you concealed carry (loaded while hunting/fishing and unloaded while traveling).

Hey all,

Here is a citation to back-up Mudcamper's post:

"(a) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when the
person carries a loaded firearm on the person or in a vehicle while
in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city
or in any public place or on any public street in a prohibited area
of unincorporated territory." Kali PC 25850 (a) Emphasis added by MM.

Question for Mudcamper:
What PC section allows us to conceal carry with a hunting license? PC 12027 (g) has been stricken, right?

PC 26366 allows us to UOC handguns while travelling to, during, and from an expedition while in prohibited areas. Correct?

markm

[markm]

Yes. It's listed in the first and second posts of this thread. Plus a discussion about it begins here. Plus I contacted the NF and BLM about this issue and you can view the BLM response here. All of this information in in this very thread.

And if you'd read any of this you'd see that I would prefer to agree with you, but there is no consensus on it yet, and it is unwise to state that UOC is legal in the NPs at this point. That would be giving advice that could quite probably get people arrested and convicted.

I won't give poor advice to fellow CalGunners. However you can draw your own conclusions and carry as you see fit. Good luck to you.

It appears to me that you are here solely to disrupt an otherwise useful thread. Please either keep it constructive, or better yet take the rest of your comments to PMs.

Hello Mudcamper,

You are a resource for those of us trying to understand the new laws.

Unfortunately, you are bashing and not answering the question that I have asked--so be it (specifially, why does PC 26388 not apply to National Parks as the federal governemnt has given permission to OC {"...Section 512 refers to "an assembled and functional firearm," we interpret that phrase to include loaded firearms"}) citation from Mudcamper's previously cited letter from NPS.

Referring me back to PC 26350 aint working.

You are correct, between the two of us, this issue is dead.

Can someboby else help me with this quesion? Please give citations.

markm

[MudCamper]

Can I wear a loaded 45 on my hip in the East Fork of Azusa canyon if I have solid copper rounds and a hunting license? Or could I wear the gun on my hip if Im fishing in the east fork or walk with a small fishing pole to a fishing location?

Is this in a National Forest? If yes, than you can UOC or LOC anywhere shooting is not prohibited with no need for a hunting or fishing license. A hunting or fishing license will let you concealed carry (loaded while hunting/fishing and unloaded while traveling).

[problemchild]

When it gets to the point you need a team of attorneys to decipher the thousands of laws and regulations just to walk onto public land something is majorly wrong.

So a question for you guys.

Can I wear a loaded 45 on my hip in the East Fork of Azusa canyon if I have solid copper rounds and a hunting license? Or could I wear the gun on my hip if Im fishing in the east fork or walk with a small fishing pole to a fishing location?