SURVIVE! Knives GSO-4.5 Standard - Your Thoughts?

[TrappedinCalifornia]

Glad you finally got off that sinking ship and hope you get your refund soon. Now go buy yourself a nice knife after this fiasco

I don't know if they're a 'sinking ship' or are about to break through the storm or something in between. I'm not so much 'angry' (provided I get my refund) as I am disappointed. It's just that after almost 6 months, you'd think they could get a knife which is supposed to 'always' be in some stage of production into a customer's hands rather than continuing evasion and pronouncements which don't hold water.

Most who have actually received one agree they are 'nice' knives. Many acknowledge that it was worth the wait. Then again, there appear to be many more who, like me, have no way to know in that a knife was never received.

I don't know what brand/model I'm going to get as a substitute and it's now almost too late in the year for me to worry about it for awhile.

[Dan_Eastvale]

I always believe the reviews of the exact item I want to order.
Not just quality, which so many of the reviews claimed was bad (post #5), but customer service as well.
If I knew by all the negative reviews that their 90 day turnaround claim was a lie, I'd shy away immediately. I wouldn't believe any of their apologetic emails or videos. Seems like they are venturing into the realm of scammers.

[TrappedinCalifornia]

I always believe the reviews of the exact item I want to order.
Not just quality, which so many of the reviews claimed was bad (post #5), but customer service as well.
If I knew by all the negative reviews that their 90 day turnaround claim was a lie, I'd shy away immediately. I wouldn't believe any of their apologetic emails or videos. Seems like they are venturing into the realm of scammers.

This is the part which began to bother me; i.e., that there were those who excoriated the business and those who praised the product and, sometimes, it was one in the same review. I can deal with a 'bad businessman' so long as the product quality is good and they get it into my hands. Based on the reviews of those who actually received product, the product quality is good. But, that's the catch... "those who actually received product."

Earlier in the thread, you'll see a limited discourse where I was advised by one member that 4 - 6 months was his expectation and I replied that 3 - 5 months was more like it for me. I waited 5 months and got... nothing... in terms of a knife, replies, and even access to ask questions in some cases. What I saw were videos and social media posts regarding just about every knife in their catalog except the one I'd ordered and that one was supposed to be in constant production. Worse. One of the more recent videos has an acknowledgement by the owner that they'd placed too much emphasis on the MagnaCut versions, the version I'd ordered.

That was a major deciding factor for me as it is tantamount to hearing that, despite the one video showing some of that version of the knife I'd ordered returning from heat treat, the company was 'emphasizing' other products and had little intention of 'serious follow through' with regard to what I'd actually ordered. When you add in my suspicion that they are using pre-order monies to purchase materials and the sheer lack of deliveries as of August, that killed my enthusiasm and severely dampened my sense of hope as well as anticipation. What finally pushed me over the edge was the video in Post #28 where he claimed they NOW know how to do it after 13 years in business. It's not just that knowing and doing are two different things, if it took you 13 years to figure out how to get a production level product completed, how much longer is it going to take for you to learn how to get it into a customer's hands?

Long story, short... I received notice from the credit card company that my money has been 'refunded;' but, it could take up to 60 days for the refund to 'finalize.' So, while it's not 'complete' yet, I guess there's some sense of satisfaction in obtaining what few claim they've been able to get... a refund for a product that was never delivered. I'll post when the refund is finalized.

[TrappedinCalifornia]

I got notice that the refund has been 'finalized.'

I'm thinking I might pick up a Bark River Bravo 1 LT in 3V as an alternative. It's not as corrosion resistant as the Magnucut version, but it's close in price and it's a known, established product.

Oh well...

[rlewpolar]

SURVIVE! Knives GSO-4.5 Standard - Your Thoughts?

I got notice that the refund has been 'finalized.'

I'm thinking I might pick up a Bark River Bravo 1 LT in 3V as an alternative. It's not as corrosion resistant as the Magnucut version, but it's close in price and it's a known, established product.

Oh well...

I have this one coming, a Volunteer Model 11. These are fantastic knives, made in small batches in Tennessee. He builds them in 3v or AEB-L. This particular one is in AEB-L. Might be worth shooting him an email and get on his waiting list. I contacted him about 12 weeks ago and this one is on the way.

https://volunteerknife.com

I?ve read a number of negative things about Bark River including fraudulent claims about the steel being used in some knives. They look good but reports of bad heat treats, using inferior steels contrary to what is being advertised in certain models, etc has made me steer clear of Bark River in general. Take that for what it?s worth.

Finally, this is a thread worth reading. Basically, it?s custom made for exactly your situation; a guy looking for an alternative to your vapor ware knife.

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/the-survive-knife-alternatives-thread-all-suggestions-welcome.1933383/

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[tladues]

I have a bunch of Survive! Knives and couple extra GSO 4.3 if you?re interested. By far my favorite knives and knife company, too bad they have issues with production deadlines.


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[TrappedinCalifornia]

I have a bunch of Survive! Knives and couple extra GSO 4.3 if you?re interested. By far my favorite knives and knife company, too bad they have issues with production deadlines.

It's not just 'production deadlines' they seem to have issues with. As I've said, in the end, they may make the greatest knives since knives were invented, but I'll never know if they can't get one in my hands. Even now, they continue to say "they're coming, just a few more..."



They did update their Production Schedule page and it still shows as only 45.2% of 2023 orders having been fulfilled. You'll note that even in the above video, the model I ordered in May is something he's still 'working on.' That's without going into the "it was them, not us" excuses and the fact that they seem to have issues dealing with Magnacut, which is the steel I ordered.

As I said, they've been in business since 2010 and they're just now 'figuring out' production? Uh... Once again, it would be interesting to see what impact, if any, reports being turned in to the State Attorney General's office has had. But, that would be conjecture/conspiracy theory at this point.

The bottom line is that, unlike the 'controversy' which surrounds Bark River Knives or, perhaps more accurately, the owner, Mike Stewart, it's not about whether something is ground appropriately or if Stewart's personality is tough to deal with or "I heard/read..." It's about a company which does not respond to customers and many, many customers waiting, in some cases, years to receive what was supposed to be a production blade. At least with Bark River, for the most part, they have a reputation for being, mostly, responsive to customer problems.

Ultimately, SURVIVE! Knives may turn out to be this generation's Bark River or even better. They just don't seem to be there now or yet. Here's a 2013/2014 thread from BladeForums regarding... Bark River Knives/Mike Stewart's Reputation. You'll see many similarities regarding how people felt about Bark River/Stewart. However, you will also find many openly disagreeing with the criticisms. It may be that it will just take some time for SURVIVE! Knives to similar 'establish' themselves and 'evolve' into better business practices.

[TrappedinCalifornia]

Just as a bit of 'follow-up' on this whole episode...

I've been loosely keeping track of SURVIVE! Knives since they have my e-mail address and keep sending me updates. Let's just say that the near non-stop kvetching about how 'they' are trying to ruin a small business and 'we' always put the customer first has gone beyond wearing thin. Their backlog seems to have improved; but, 'seems' is the crucial caveat.

The bottom line comes down to this, the knife steel I ordered - Magnacut - still appears to be creating problems for them and, once again, the claim(s) are that it's not 'their' fault, it's... somebody else's. Which brings us to a 5-day old and a 3-day old video reacting, in part, to the 5-day old video I stumbled on this morning...



The sense I get is that other knife producers are beginning to react to the "we are better than everyone else" marketing SURVIVE! Knives has been doing. Let's just say that while attempting to be fair, there is a bit of incredulity from the other manufacturers. It's one of those "if they are telling the truth," "we haven't seen those problems," "the issues we have seen aren't as 'major' as they are having;" i.e., "we don't think SURVIVE! is lying, but don't let what they are saying mitigate how you think about us" type of things.

In short, whatever problems SURVIVE! Knives is having or claims to be having don't seem to shared by other 'small' manufacturers, at least not at the level being claimed. They 'understand' the problems and are sympathetic, to a point, but they also seem to be 'concerned' that his constant kvetching is negatively impacting the market. Whether that is trying to get ahead of the curve or a reaction to feedback they are receiving from customers, I can't say. However, if you listen to both videos, there is some of the same 'critique' I proffered about the idea that they produce a good product, but need to learn how to manage a business.

Oh... and if you want a knife from SURVIVE! Knives, order from their "In Stock" offerings, cause you're gonna wait awhile on anything they list as "Pre Order."

[Elgatodeacero]

only an idiot would order from Survive knives.

[TrappedinCalifornia]

only an idiot would order from Survive knives.

I don't know if they'd qualify as an 'idiot.'

But, I do know they have more money and non-use time than I have or wish to give.

If you go to their production schedule page, you'll note that they still claim only 39.8% and 48.1% fulfillment of orders for 2022 and 2023, yet 48.1% fulfillment for 2024 as of 2/14. Naturally, the next chart, Proportion of Open Orders, doesn't match the fulfillment chart.

So, let's just say they've still got some issues. But, hey. He thinks they're in a 'good groove.'



Yeah. More of... "It's not our fault."

As I said previously, it may not actually be all their fault. They may be and are likely suffering from a storm of unfortunate events. However, some of it is most decidedly a result of their not being able to efficiently run the business and blaming things on others wears thin. Which is why I provided the update in that, apparently, it is also wearing a bit thin on some fellow manufacturers in terms of the 'feedback' which has resulted for them.

[TKM]

I've got a couple of MagnaCut blades from Buck. And a really cool scar. (Stopped on the nailbed not the bone like I thought.)

[TrappedinCalifornia]

Evidently, there have been some changes at SURVIVE! Knives.

First, their website now only lists what's In Stock. In this case, only EDC-4's. They've evidently stopped taking preorders. Unfortunately, they still seem to be playing 'catch up' on backorders.

Second, they've evidently acquired a 'new' partner and the changes seem to coincide with his arrival.

Ontario Knife Company was acquired by Blue Ridge Knives.

Here's the new partner with Guy...

Yeah. It's still not his fault. He's still after 'perfection.' He's still working hard. But, it would appear that the new guy is getting him to focus rather than bouncing all over the place. He also appears to be doing the videos for SURVIVE!.

[Flying Sig]

Sounds like Survive! is no more. You may have got out just in time OP

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fhuy-WDwDE8

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LgRBDphrqkI

[TrappedinCalifornia]

Sounds like Survive! is no more. You may have got out just in time OP

That's pretty much what I was alluding to back in May as a possibility based on the 'new partner' coupled with the severe cut in what was available. At least that's where it looked like it was headed. Couple that with the divorce he got from his wife, the AG investigation, the now 364 page thread on Blade Forums, etc. and it didn't look all that promising.

But, you'll note in the video, it's still not HIS fault.

As I said, the vast majority who actually got knives think they're great. I'm not sure it was a scam or entirely a scam. I am sure he was in over his head in terms of being a businessman. There are some indications he didn't follow and even disagreed with 'standard' practices in the industry. Yet, as is noted in your videos, there are reasons for those practices having become 'standard.'

Insofar as getting my money back and getting out in time... As I indicated, I think it had more to do with my timing than anything else other than turning it over to the credit card coming rather than trying to deal with it personally. The sense I got is that people were giving him too much time before finally asking for a refund and even their credit card companies were turning them down.

I do know and have known companies which operated on the basis of letting pre-orders build up, then investing in the necessary materials. Yet, as I noted, it was relatively uncommon to take the whole payment up front and not provide a firm date of delivery, let alone an indeterminate one. So long as you allowed a small fudge factor, virtually every one of those companies delivered on the pre-orders. In fact, I mentioned in the one thread that I was eyeing a backpack and I get the feeling that it too is building a sufficient pre-order base to justify a production run. The difference is that they don't ask for money upfront and, instead, base it on a notification system.

Randall Knives is a good example. Place your order, then wait 6 years for the order to be fulfilled. Otherwise, you can go to a dealer and paying a 50% - 100% markup, but get it much sooner. If you order direct from Randall, they take a non-refundable, $50 deposit. But, they've been doing this for how many decades? 80 years? In other words, they have a well-established reputation for quality and for actually delivering blades.

SURVIVE! Knives did not and hadn't even been in business as an individual entity (not having been operating out of another company's production facility) for all that long and they had developed something of a reputation for not delivering the entirety or, in some cases, the majority of orders on various models. Yet, they kept pushing even more designs and more re-worked designs at the public.

So, yeah. I'm glad I opted to get out of it. In some ways, I regret not obtaining one of their blades; but, the Bark River Bravo 1 LT in 3V that I went ahead and picked up as an alternative is nice enough. I just haven't actually used it enough to speak legitimately about it... yet.

[TrappedinCalifornia]

I did a little digging and found this...

It confirms what the 2nd video in Flying Sig's Post #43 said; i.e., that SURVIVE! Knives is no longer in business. In fact, the owner himself is not permitted to work in knives and the equipment has been liquidated. About all that's left is a storage unit with some blanks.

I was correct in my suspicions in that they were using pre-order monies to invest in materials to fulfill previous orders. If you watch both videos in Flying Sig's post, both individuals very much like their SURVIVE! blades, but both indicate the problem(s) went beyond non-deliveries. Let's just say that there is some conviction that there are 'mental issues' (of some kind) involved, but no information is forthcoming as to what kinds of issues they might be. Evidently, the owner would work hard and produce... when he worked. Otherwise, he was off in his own world.

Likewise, he didn't 'get rich,' though there are claims that he is responsible for up to $2 Million in losses to other companies, including the company which moved his operation back East. He no longer has a wife, a dog, a vehicle, or a home. (He's living with a 'friend.') There still seem to be some 'court issues' involved as well and he's trying to avoid personal bankruptcy.

As I indicated, I'm not sure it was really a 'scam' so much as it became tantamount to one in his efforts to stay in business. He burned A LOT of bridges in the industry and there are quite a number of people who never received (and will never receive) their order; some of those orders, evidently, being quite sizeable. As the one YouTube personality indicated, it wasn't entirely his fault, but he did act as a catalyst where the impacts of a number of things were exacerbated. In that sense, many of the issues which he claimed weren't his fault weren't actually his fault. However, it was his fault that he couldn't adapt, wouldn't allow someone else to actually 'manage' the business while he focused on production (then, it is said, he couldn't actually focus on the production for any length of time), didn't/wouldn't correct course when things started, not to mention went, awry, etc.

Many seem to feel it is a shame as the knives which actually made it to the end users were considered very good quality. But, as I said before, they may produce the best knives the World has ever seen; but, if they don't get one into my hands, I'll never know. Unfortunately, it appears I'm not the only one who will 'never know' and it would also appear that it was a good thing I got my money back when I did.

Just thought you might appreciate the update.