Dillon 550B

[Bigballaizm]

That was a good deal.... Thats all Im gonna say on this one!

[ivanimal]

I think the OP was wrong to sell to a more convenient buyer and negative feedback is in order. He clearly was in process of doing a deal. That is not how we see the for sale section being used. I will consult with the other mods to see if more action needs to be taken.

[ke6guj]

thank you for your viewpoint in this Ivan. It would be nice to hear the official viewpoint of CG on this and have it placed into the rules so that we all know how it works.

I just don't think it is right to force me, as a seller, to have to deal with shipping an item if I did not originally offer it as an option. I know that shipping a large item could be difficult if I don't have the original packaging (although it does sound like the OP may have still had the original packaging which would have made it easier). Then, if I decide I will look into shipping it without having finalized a deal with the potential buyer, I should be able to sell it on my original terms to another buyer if it is more convenient to me. I mean, what if the the OP had come back the next day and said, "NO, I won't ship it."? and then sold it to the next guy? Same thing that happened here, except that he didn't post that he wouldn't ship it before he marked it sold.

I know that someone will mention the UCC and how I am required to sell in XYZ manner, etc, but I don't care. I do think that a seller should be able to decide on a deal that is more convenient to him if he hasn't finalized a deal with someone. Once you finalize a deal, then you are stuck with it, but until then I should be able to pick the deal that is best for me.

[boxbro]

thank you for your viewpoint in this Ivan. It would be nice to hear the official viewpoint of CG on this and have it placed into the rules so that we all know how it works.

I just don't think it is right to force me, as a seller, to have to deal with shipping an item if I did not originally offer it as an option.

The seller should put "no shipping" in his OP if he does not want to deal with shipping.
When a seller lists something for sale and fails to do that, it's not the buyers fault.
Besides, in this particular situation, based on the sellers response, it seemed as though he was willing to ship.

I know that shipping a large item could be difficult if I don't have the original packaging (although it does sound like the OP may have still had the original packaging which would have made it easier).

I have been in the packing and shipping business for 20 years, it's pretty simple, even if you don't have the original box.
The seller could have just used Google:

http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=shipping+94585

Easy as pie.

Then, if I decide I will look into shipping it without having finalized a deal with the potential buyer, I should be able to sell it on my original terms to another buyer if it is more convenient to me.

Yes but I have a feeling you would word your OP correctly.
For example in my recent for sale thread, I posted "Will meet for transfer anywhere within approx. 50 miles of LA".
A few people PM'ed me to ask if I would ship and I said no.
If I had said let me get you a price tomorrow, and then I sold it to someone else, that would be wrong.
I also posted, "OK, due to popular demand I am listing prices separately.
What sells separately will be dictated by the purchaser of the gun.
If they want everything, they get first choice."
That made it clear that any "I'll take it's" for things separately will net you first in line only if the buyer of the gun does not want the separate item.
It's the OP's job to make things clear.
If you want to choose the most convenient buyer, then say so in the OP.

I mean, what if the the OP had come back the next day and said, "NO, I won't ship it."? and then sold it to the next guy? Same thing that happened here, except that he didn't post that he wouldn't ship it before he marked it sold.

Same thing didn't happen here because the seller did not refuse to ship it.
If he had, and then sold it to the next guy, he would have been in the clear, provided he sold it FTF and didn't ship it for the next guy.

I know that someone will mention the UCC and how I am required to sell in XYZ manner, etc, but I don't care. I do think that a seller should be able to decide on a deal that is more convenient to him if he hasn't finalized a deal with someone. Once you finalize a deal, then you are stuck with it, but until then I should be able to pick the deal that is best for me.

It just doesn't work that way here.
First "I'll take it" get's it.
Otherwise an OP can just list something with no conditions and then pick whoever they want to sell it to for whatever unstated reason.
Nothing is more frustrating than being the first to respond to something you need and or want and then getting the rug pulled out from under you.

[longinc]

I agree with Jack (ke6guj). Ivan, i think as a moderator, you should fully understand the situation and principles underlying this marketplace before jumping to the conclusion of censuring someone.

In my opinion, the OP did NOTHING WRONG in this situation for the following reasons:

1. The OP's posting was clear that shipping was not included. In my opinion, chasen49's "I'll take it..." was really an offer to only take it at $325 (with the OP absorbing the cost of shipping). So, NO DEAL had been consummated at that point in time, and all I see is a negotiation in progress.

2. There is no rule in this marketplace to prevent someone from negotiating with multiple folks at the same time. If there was such a rule, then i say Calguns does not stand by the "free market" principles that this country is all about. If i were to sell something today, i would not only list my item on this marketplace, but also on various other sites (eg. ebay etc) to maximize exposure and to negotiate with as many people before settling on a deal so as to maximize the value and transactional convenience to me. And this is not unique here, we do this in the stock market, housing market, car market, and every other market in this free world. what makes this situation any different ?!!

[cdrxls]

2 posts, itrader rating 0/0 ....... didn't this raise a red flag?

i'm not saying 0/0 rating is bad, just don't expect the seller/buyer to know and understand all the rules, even though we think we/they know it.

if you feel that you've been wronged, then a itrader rating should be in order.

[boxbro]

I agree with Jack (ke6guj). Ivan, i think as a moderator, you should fully understand the situation and principles underlying this marketplace before jumping to the conclusion of censuring someone

That's a pretty bold statement to make as your first post on calguns.

In my opinion, the OP did NOTHING WRONG in this situation for the following reasons:

1. The OP's posting was clear that shipping was not included.

No he wasn't.
He edited the OP to clarify shipping was not included only after chansen49 inquired.
chansen49 then asked how much shipping was and the OP said he would get back to him, and instead of keeping to his word, he sold it to someone else.

In my opinion, chasen49's "I'll take it..." was really an offer to only take it at $325 (with the OP absorbing the cost of shipping). So, NO DEAL had been consummated at that point in time, and all I see is a negotiation in progress.

2. There is no rule in this marketplace to prevent someone from negotiating with multiple folks at the same time. If there was such a rule, then i say Calguns does not stand by the "free market" principles that this country is all about. If i were to sell something today, i would not only list my item on this marketplace, but also on various other sites (eg. ebay etc) to maximize exposure and to negotiate with as many people before settling on a deal so as to maximize the value and transactional convenience to me. And this is not unique here, we do this in the stock market, housing market, car market, and every other market in this free world. what makes this situation any different ?!!

What makes this different is that this is calguns, which is owned and operated by someone other than yourself and they make the rules here since it is their site.
Calguns has been very clear that they don't want auctions and or bidding wars happening.
If you were to list something here and also list it on ebay, my guess is you would be warned at the very least, if not banned.
If you want to maximize your exposure and or profits, do it on ebay, not here.

[longinc]

Boxbro,

I appreciate your point of view. And I also assume you are an experienced member on this forum, and so have read the rules:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=171185

1. I do not see the rules suggesting that one cannot post an item here and on other auction sites (only restriction is not to post the link to the other site on calguns, and that one should state that one has also posted it on another auction site and take it down if a deal has been consummated....). So unless, you feel that these are insufficient to reflect the values you have stated, perhaps its time to have the group make edits to the rules?

2. Taking the time to negotiate with multiple parties does not equate to an auction - i did not see OP using this forum as a means or tool to create a bidding war here. I think it allows the seller time to uncover what is the true value for his/her item that is being offered (assuming he/she has not accepted a prior deal - and the seller here clearly DID NOT accept chasen49's deal. all the person said was he/she would check on shipping charges)

3. I may have made a bold statement as a newbie, but i think a moderator should be held to a higher standard because certain "powers" may have been entrusted in him/her and he/she bears a certain amount of influence on the group as a moderator. And in this case, proper consideration of the facts, rules, market principles should have been considered before jumping the gun in considering the censuring of someone.

I have benefited greatly from the information availed here and found the market place to be extremely useful. I appreciate the diversity of views on this forum, and is one of the nice things that make this forum colorful and fun to be on. But, a cautious red flag pops up for me when i see attempts to create a market environment where the forces of demand and supply are artificially restricted when one might be censured for trying to uncover the true value of their item for sale.

[boxbro]

Boxbro,

I appreciate your point of view. And I also assume you are an experienced member on this forum, and so have read the rules:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=171185

1. I do not see the rules suggesting that one cannot post an item here and on other auction sites (only restriction is not to post the link to the other site on calguns, and that one should state that one has also posted it on another auction site and take it down if a deal has been consummated....). So unless, you feel that these are insufficient to reflect the values you have stated, perhaps its time to have the group make edits to the rules?

Once someone here says "I'll take it", it is against the spirit of the rule if you you don't sell it here simply because you are running an ebay auction at the same time.
I am not a mod so maybe we should just let a mod tell us.
IMO, it's a grey area so yeah maybe a rule change is needed.
With that said, listing here and on ebay at the same time is not the situation that occured here so it's moot either way.

2. Taking the time to negotiate with multiple parties does not equate to an auction - i did not see OP using this forum as a means or tool to create a bidding war here. I think it allows the seller time to uncover what is the true value for his/her item that is being offered (assuming he/she has not accepted a prior deal - and the seller here clearly DID NOT accept chasen49's deal. all the person said was he/she would check on shipping charges)

Sorry but the way it works around here is the first "I'll take it" gets it.
A seller can't just arbitrarily refuse to sell it to that person and then sell it to someone else.

3. I may have made a bold statement as a newbie, but i think a moderator should be held to a higher standard because certain "powers" may have been entrusted in him/her and he/she bears a certain amount of influence on the group as a moderator. And in this case, proper consideration of the facts, rules, market principles should have been considered before jumping the gun in considering the censuring of someone.

The problem here is your unsubstantiated claim that the mod jumped the gun.
I am sure ivan properly considered the facts and then replied in the thread.
Just because you don't agree with his opinion does not mean he jumped the gun or didn't give proper consideration of the facts.

I have benefited greatly from the information availed here and found the market place to be extremely useful.

Just out of curiousity, with next to no posts and no iTrader feedback, what exactly have you found to be extremely useful ?

I appreciate the diversity of views on this forum, and is one of the nice things that make this forum colorful and fun to be on. But, a cautious red flag pops up for me when i see attempts to create a market environment where the forces of demand and supply are artificially restricted when one might be censured for trying to uncover the true value of their item for sale.

This sounds like a call for letting people run auctions.
As stated in the rules:

"if you are unsure of what you want to ask for an item list a price you think is slightly higher than what you want to get and simply state, 'willing to negotiate'. You can also add 'OBO' (Or Best Offer) after your projected price. While this means you are willing to entertain offers it is NOT a license to auction, neither does it mean that it is acceptable to take a higher offer after you have agreed to a price and a deal."

In this situation, the seller listed a price and therefore should no longer be "trying to uncover the true value of their item for sale", otherwise it becomes an auction.
Besides, the gripe here is about respecting who is first in line, not about uncovering "the true value of their item for sale"

[ke6guj]

the problem with a blanket "I'll take it" rule is that there are alway exceptions to the rule.

For example, I had a deal in which I was negotiating with the seller. I told him "If we can meet on a specific day, I'll take it" While we were working out if it was possible to meet (it was an out-of-town deal that I would only be in the area that day) another person posted an "I'l take it" and was upset when I was able to finalize the deal. I was told by others that an unconditional "I'll take it" trumped my deal that was in negotiations and I should have lost out on the deal. But now, I'm told in this thread that the deal in negotiations trumps the follow up "I'll take it" offer.

Two deals, 180 degrees difference in what is considered the "right way".

[bruceflinch]

Give the OP the negative feedback. He'll probably never be back, anyway.

[longinc]

Boxbro,

1. Saying "I'll take it" with an offer that is below what the OP is asking for is not a done deal. Its like i am asking $325, and the buyer says " I'll take it at $300" - does that mean i have to sell it to that person. Absolutely not. And you could you argue the OP only put up the the shipping note after the OP was asked abt it - come on, give the person a break, we are not professional sellers here to have crossed all the t's and dotted the i's when we put up a posting. And i agree wiith ke6guj that with this blanket "I'll take it" rule, it doesn't work given all the possible situations.

2. And i still think the mod jumped the gun because i believe there are others on this forum (as evidenced from some of the responses and others who haven't posted on this thread ) who would agree with me that the OP did NOTHING wrong. So where is the balanced consideration by the mod of all the facts that you are referring to.

3. I'm happy to continue to debate this topic if we are constructive in our arguments using fact and logic. But i think you are making this personal by questioning my lack of previous postings. One can benefit simply from listening and reading what's on this forum. And, even if i haven't posted much in the past or done a trade (well I only recently joined this forum a few months back), that doesn't mean i am not entitled to voice an opinion on this matter. Although you've posted 197 times in the past, it doesn't mean your values and opinions are 197 times more important than mine and any others who have posted less than you have.

[yzErnie]

Don't know how long you have hovered around the forum but if you had you'd see there has been a tremendous decline in people being able to hold to a commitment. There comes a time when you get so disgusted with peoples failure to follow through with their word you just have to do what you have to do. My suggestion would be to leave the guy a feedback comment indicating what happened. That way the next guy won't get screwed out of a buy.

[cdrxls]

posting and buying/selling are 2 different things, once you've experienced a few buys and sales, you'll know. Try it.

[qtrxist]

what the OP (original poster) shouldve done AS A COURTESY is to give Chansen49 a quote on how much the shipping is before selling it to a more convenient buyer. He said he will go to UPS and ask how much, THEN somebody offered and OP doesnt have to go the hassle of packaging, taking it to UPS etc etc.
HINT: on the original post, it did not include shipping meaning OP didnt intend to ship.

NOW, it got sold. BUT Chansen49 said he will take it *IF* shipping is included. well, there is an *IF*.. Like ke6guj said, should he have said "ill take it whatever the shipping cost" then "ill take it" rule applies.

BUT then again, if the OP changed his mind and doesnt want to ship then even if Chansen49 said that, there is still no deal. i think.

to the OP: should he/she deserve a negative iTrade? NO. but it wouldve helped alot if OP informed no shipping.
to Chansen49, save a few bucks. its $365 at dillon site.

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what has said above is purely a personal opinion